commuter rail (Atlanta, Acworth: how much, train, snow)

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by MattCW

I'm tired of this myth that suburbanites CHOSE to live in the suburbs. Many of us were born here. Other had no choice. Intown neighborhoods (closer to where the jobs are) are either crime-filled areas or the cost of living is too high, particularly if you have a family! Want to bring people back into Atlanta? IMPROVE THE CITY! What do you really want? Suburbanites to all move away to someplace that actually cares about moving its people around?

You're free to believe whatever you want. It doesn't make you correct.

First, realize that people have been moving to the Atlanta suburbs for more than 30 years now. That's what's driven the growth of the area, not the City of Atlanta. The population within the city limits has remained virtually unchanged (actually lost a few thousand people) since 1980, while the remaining areas that are counted as the metro area (and yes...I understand the MSA and how that's evolved) have increased in population from about 1.3 million people in 1980 to almost 6 million today.

Do you think those 4.5 million people really wanted to live in the city but settled for the suburbs as their second choice? If so, you're just ignoring the facts.

Many people such as myself moved here precisely for the suburban lifestyle with accompanying cost of living, many times from major metropolitan areas such as NY or Chicago. Transplants (both black and white) made a conscious choice to live in a suburban area and buy a new, bigger, late model home, as opposed to living in the urban area in an apartment, condo, or older and smaller home. In many cases (like me), that's what we were leaving. Add to that schools and the desire for modern and better performing schools, and the suburbs are the logical choice.

Since 6 million people aren't monolithic, and reasons for moving here have evolved over many years, not everyone may share my reasons, but I work with quite a few people who do, and those people came here from places like Ohio, DC, California, NY, Boston, Chicago, Miami.

[toll_booth]

Originally Posted by arjay57

How about moving into the city and putting your shoulder to the wheel along with other residents who were willing to go out on the limb a little to make things better?

That's what has turned around a lot of city neighborhoods. Many have found the process satisfying and economically feasible.

As long as one elects to stay outside the fray and holler, their effectiveness will likely be limited.

Arjay, you continue to be a voice of reason on this forum.

Originally Posted by MattCW

Just what exactly are we supposed to do then? Raise billions of dollars to bulldoze the slums and build and subsidize housing that's affordable? Good luck with that. I'm referring mostly to this hate of the suburbs by the ITPers. If you think the suburbs are a bad deal, then you do something about it. Convince your elected officials to improve policing, zone better, support development projects that actually revitalize an area. Our non-constituent voices don't carry very far in that regard.

The thing that has never made sense about comments such as these is why they always take criticism so personally. Most of the critics are more than willing to take a look at an honest argument claiming that single-family dwellings, cul-de-sacs, a lack of bike lanes and mass transit, and exclusive reliance on car transportation, benefit the individual, community, and region. They're all ears. But they're not gonna just roll over and play dead to arguments that amount to little more than "stop complaining, you're being a meanie-poo."

[neil0311]

Originally Posted by MattCW

So should I move to the high-crime areas or put myself deep into debt moving into the expensive areas?

No matter what state/city you live in, you always face a trade off when you make a decision where to live.

Do you think other cities have wonderful low crime areas with great schools and the cost to buy a home there is less than high crime areas? Have you ever given thought to the fact that more affluent and educated people make an area better, increasing the desirability of an area and the school achievement, and thereby making home prices more expensive relatively?

It's a market at work....prices rise when demand also rises. Whether you deem the benefit of living in a certain community worth the cost is up to you.

[Born 2 Roll]

Originally Posted by aries4118

Atlanta does have a fairly large MARTA footprint.


But look at San Francisco's BART--Atlanta's sistah system. MARTA (as a hybrid subway/metro/commuter system as well) was supposed to be as expansive as BART. And it still can. Let's imagine...


With BART--the stations are farther apart in the suburbs, but become close-together and urban the further in one goes. A model for MARTA.

Good comments and excellent points.

The hybrid subway/metro/commuter rail transit model exhibited by BART in the Bay Area of Northern California is something that can and should be a model for how passenger rail transit can be expanded in the Atlanta region in the future.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by MattCW

Yes, because it's just that easy!
Atlanta must be the only metro area where the city hates its suburbs.

Sheesh, Matt, you are obsessing over this city/suburb thing!

A few basic things to bear in mind:

(1) We Atlantans love our suburbs. That's where 94% of us live. They are diverse, vibrant and international. That's where most of the jobs are. The schools are great in many of them. You can get a lot of bang for your buck in housing. The suburbs are a great place to live and raise a family.

(2) Anybody who says "I hate the suburbs" or "I hate the city" is silly and naive. They both have their merits and demerits but they are more alike than different.

(3) Most areas within the city limits are suburban. Some of the intown suburbs are older but they are still suburban in form, history and culture.

(4) The city is also a good place to live. You are right that upscale intown hoods are pretty pricey these days, but so are the upscale suburbs. That's not because somebody intown decreed that "These neighborhoods shall be expensive," it's simply the market at work.

(5) There are plenty of affordable options intown if that's where you are set on living. They are by no means crime-infested hellholes with terrible schools. I know this has been pointed out in the past, but consider areas like Bolton, Riverside, Underwood Hills, Austin Woods, Stonewall Tell, Adams Park, East Atlanta, Linridge Martin Manor, Ormewood, Kirkwood, Reynoldstown, and on and on.

(6) You may not think the intown schools are good enough for you, but that's your call. A lot of people believe they are fine and are betting they will get better.

It's all about what you want and what your personal priorities are. Totally your call.

[NY2ATL2NY]

This Thread has gotten off topic...as someone mentioned here....Lets Face the music...The suburbs of atl Do have a love hate relationship with its core City...But how can suburbs survive without a central core??? Yes Most of choose to live 20 Plus miles from donwtown for a "better life" kinda Thing And Yes Atlanta is a unique place becuase of the Outside The core Job centers Such as Dunwoody,cumberland,and what have you...This STILL Calls for connectivity...Even here in New york City we have "reverse commuting" patterns meaning Not Evryone comes into the city for work and go elsewhere such as White plains NY, Stamford CT, Jersey, Nassau county...So We Solve all of our problems with an EXTENSIVE transportation Network that is the Long Island Railroad, Metro north And NJ Transit Commuter Networks...All of which Provide Seemless movement across a 500 Sq Mile Area....This sounds like the Metro ATL region....Build Commuter Rail with Its Core Terminal Downtown But Extending Across the suburbs from Acworth to Covington So This Way Regardless of where U may Work You can Get there Without such Heavy Reliance On The Car...If we didnt have the above mentioned Networks In Place Then New York Would Face absoulute Gridlock in evry sense of the word...Why? becuase Not evrybody needs to be driving...Some Have No choice but it shouldnt Be the Only Choice...This Argument is just plain Stupid...Give Atlantans the Option At least to Try something diffrent Other than the blessed Car And They Will use it..as such success with the Express buses have Proven...

[Ant131531]

Atlanta's metro is way too big to realistically believe transit can extend in all directions and hit every city. Improve rail in the city. Screw anyone who doesn't live in Fulton and Dekalb begging for transit when they don't pay for it. I used to be one of the 'Build rail in the suburbs". Now I realize that neighborhoods like Westside or Inman Park or Virginia Highlands desperately needs transit and deserve it because they pay for it.

[NY2ATL2NY]

Ummm Atl Metro may be big but we can Run Rails some 120 Miles East Here in New york (Montauk,NY-LIRR)
74 Miles North (Poughkeepsie,NY-Metro North) 50 miles West (NJ Transit),Trenton,NJ 60 miles South (NJ Transit) Atlanta is in fact "Sprawling" in evry sense of the word but it can be covered by EXISTING rails already in place (with proper upgrading obviously) with comutter rail...Expanding the MARTA is expensive and would only help the central core and the most closest to 285 but the Real traffic starts WELL outside the perimiter....And the whole "Atlanta dosent have the Rail history of NY" Theory is Utter BullSvit...Google The word "Terminus,GA"....quite surprising what youll find out! lol...It can be done!!.. Just need a complete NEW younger generation in the dome to pull the people together...We currently got old heads down there thinkin with 1950s mindset...

[Born 2 Roll]

Originally Posted by Ant131531

Atlanta's metro is way too big to realistically believe transit can extend in all directions and hit every city.

This is a good point, which is why we don't need to attempt to extend passenger rail transit to all directions and hit every city in the greater Atlanta metro region with passenger rail transit lines.

We only need to extend passenger rail transit lines out through the busiest transportation corridors (mainly transportation corridors anchored by and centered on severely-congested major highway spokes radiating out from the urban core, with the exception of a cross-regional high-capacity passenger rail transit corridor connecting Cobb and Gwinnett by way of the Top End of the I-285 Perimeter).

The outlying areas not served directly by passenger rail transit can be served by a combination of local and regional bus lines, park-and-ride regional passenger rail transit service (where commuters drive or shuttle to the nearest rail transit station to board a train like in other large metro regions with more extensive transit service), or major surface roads upgraded with grade-separated intersections at major junctions (...grade separations that can help outlying bus lines more-quickly connect to outlying passenger rail transit lines).

Transportation solutions for large metro regions like Atlanta cannot just focus on one single mode of transportation (like only just rail, only just bus, or only just roads), but must be multimodal in nature, meaning that transportation solutions must be applied to rail, bus and roads because rail transit can only go so many places and roads can only hold so many cars and can only be expanded so far.

Originally Posted by Ant131531

Improve rail in the city. Screw anyone who doesn't live in Fulton and Dekalb begging for transit when they don't pay for it. I used to be one of the 'Build rail in the suburbs". Now I realize that neighborhoods like Westside or Inman Park or Virginia Highlands desperately needs transit and deserve it because they pay for it.

Though I personally would not put it in those exact terms, I do agree that a transit agency like MARTA needs to concentrate on becoming the best transit agency that it can be in the area that it already serves in Fulton and DeKalb counties before it worries about trying to expand to outlying areas where the locals may be much more skeptical about the need for transit, despite the worsening traffic congestion, the limited road infrastructure and the obvious economic impairments that result from the lack of a more multimodal transportation infrastructure.

Your comments also reflect the pressing need to change the way that transit and transportation in general is funded and financed in a fast-growing metro region like Atlanta.

Instead of funding passenger rail transit with politically-contentious county-by-county and regional sales tax referendums (like the 1% MARTA sales tax most counties don't want to pay, and with flawed voter referendums like 2012's unpopular regional T-SPLOST) and a flat fare-rate structure that does not collect enough revenues to cover operating costs, some more effective and less politically-contentious ways to fund transit would be with:

...Distance-based fares paid by-the-mile that are indexed to inflation so that farebox revenues always cover a substantial majority of operating costs;

...Real Estate revenues (for-profit leases of transit-owned property at and around stations and along transit lines out to developers for the construction of revenue-generating and ridership-generating high-density transit-oriented development);

...Tax Incremental Financing (portions of property tax revenues from new and selected existing development along transit lines);

...Private investment (for-profit term-leases of transit lines out to private investors who would be responsible for all design, construction, operational, and maintenance costs during the life of the lease).

[tech_bonus]

Man...not exactly a "told you so" sort of post here - but you guys have to admit - this thread became pretty prophetic in exactly one month from it's creation.