Beltline route plan released (Atlanta, Auburn: neighborhood, yard, land)

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by ATLJR

I feel like they're over complicating matters. I'm so afraid that this will be focus grouped to death, with way too many cooks in the kitchen. I understand there are a lot of logistical issues, but at the same time, spend the money and do it right, or what money you do spend will be a waste.

Why do we need 3 loops? On the Beltline itself have the ability for bi-directional loop operation. There can be key areas, where space permits, that the light rail vehicles (LRVs) can pass each other. Then have your crosstown sections - the various east/west and north/south sections - run back and forth from different points on the Beltline on dedicated rail.

I worry, with the scheme they're proposing here, we're going to have very long headways making the transit, for most, useless or at least less attractive than simply driving. I also worry about the crosstown routes having dedicated right of way. If they don't, the crosstown routes are completely useless.

I really, after the streetcar debacle, don't have a lot of faith in the team leading the transit portion of this project. I'm as big as proponent of transit as you'll find, but don't half-ass things. Not only will it end up in failure, but it'll damage any future expansions as opponents can point to your failures, because you half-assed it. For example, the needless looping of the current streetcar line, not having dedicated right of ways, and the tedious headways.

Single tracking it along the corridor is half assing it. If you look at European tram systems they are set up similar to this.

[ATLJR]

Originally Posted by cqholt

Single tracking it along the corridor is half assing it. If you look at European tram systems they are set up similar to this.

Which part of my post are you referencing?

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by ATLJR

Which part of my post are you referencing?

Building the BeltLine portion single track, allowing trams to pass each other at sidings. If this is not what you meant then I read it wrong

[tikigod311]

Originally Posted by ATLJR

I feel like they're over complicating matters. I'm so afraid that this will be focus grouped to death, with way too many cooks in the kitchen. I understand there are a lot of logistical issues, but at the same time, spend the money and do it right, or what money you do spend will be a waste.

Why do we need 3 loops? On the Beltline itself have the ability for bi-directional loop operation. There can be key areas, where space permits, that the light rail vehicles (LRVs) can pass each other. Then have your crosstown sections - the various east/west and north/south sections - run back and forth from different points on the Beltline on dedicated rail.

I worry, with the scheme they're proposing here, we're going to have very long headways making the transit, for most, useless or at least less attractive than simply driving. I also worry about the crosstown routes having dedicated right of way. If they don't, the crosstown routes are completely useless.

I really, after the streetcar debacle, don't have a lot of faith in the team leading the transit portion of this project. I'm as big as proponent of transit as you'll find, but don't half-ass things. Not only will it end up in failure, but it'll damage any future expansions as opponents can point to your failures, because you half-assed it. For example, the needless looping of the current streetcar line, not having dedicated right of ways, and the tedious headways.

I understand that idea of too many cooks (great video btw), but realize these meetings are more informative. I seriously doubt some random comment I make at one of these meetings has any impact of significance. I'm glad they are reaching out and keeping the public involved. I don't think it is being bogged down as this process takes FOR EVER regardless of how much the public is involved. I also think it may be a requirement to get federal funding (environmental review) / avoid legal disputes.

The fact that they have three loops will help headways! With so many lines sharing the Beltline corridor, it's going to be busy, and that's a good thing. You can't have 15 min wait times for short hops. I think most riders aren't going to ride from one end to the other, they are going to hop on and connect to another line or MARTA or go down the street / corridor.

They absolutely, ABSOLUTELY have to have signal prioritization for these crosstown routes. I spoke with a guy who works for CoA Public Works, specifically the streetcar, last night and asked him about signal prioritization. He said it is something they are looking into, but then went into this whole spell about what the main purpose of the street is (car, streetcar, bike, ped).

While it is important to consider, I was kind of taken a back that he kept going on about what, theoretically, the purpose of the street is. OK, the priority of Auburn and Edgewood should be Ped and Streetcar, really Streetcar HAS to take priority. It will be a gigantic choke point for the whole system if it is sitting there waiting at stop lights for no reason! I know he is being political, but it was kinda ridiculous. Reading between the lines, they know they have to do signal prioritization and it is coming when the system.

I told the CoA guy straight up that while I support the streetcar, it is essentially unusable at this point due to the lack of signal prioritization. I don't think it was the first time he heard that

[ATLJR]

Originally Posted by cqholt

Building the BeltLine portion single track, allowing trams to pass each other at sidings. If this is not what you meant then I read it wrong

I would love a double track, but I understand there might be logistical issues preventing that at many areas. What I am saying is, at the very least, allow the LRVs to run both directions with areas that do have the width for double tracks, to be used as passing if need be. To have it round in a single direction would be asinine and detrimental to ridership.

[tikigod311]

BTW, kudos to C-D members for representing last night! So good to see the nerds here actually getting involved in the process. They want people to come to these things. We love to sit here and armchair quarterback this stuff on a forum, but you can do it in RL.

I kind of view this as a once in a lifetime opportunity to be a part of a process of this magnitude. These folks and processes being so accessible is one of my favorite parts of living in Atlanta!

[JPD]

Originally Posted by ATLJR

To have it round in a single direction would be asinine and detrimental to ridership.

I agree. If it's going to be a one way loop, they shouldn't even bother building it. That would be useless.

[tikigod311]

Originally Posted by ATLJR

I would love a double track, but I understand there might be logistical issues preventing that at many areas. What I am saying is, at the very least, allow the LRVs to run both directions with areas that do have the width for double tracks, to be used as passing if need be. To have it round in a single direction would be asinine and detrimental to ridership.

All the routes are double-tracked, or at least running in both directions, unless they are separated by a block. I heard specifically last night, one of the crosstown routes goes clockwise, the other counterclockwise in the Beltline Corridor.

[ATLJR]

Originally Posted by tikigod311

I told the CoA guy straight up that while I support the streetcar, it is essentially unusable at this point due to the lack of signal prioritization. I don't think it was the first time he heard that

To address some of your post, I wasn't implying that they shouldn't hear public input and I certainly wasn't implying that your input specifically was "too much", so I apologize if it came off that way. What I was implying was there are too many people making decisions trying to cater to too many constituents. There needs to be strong leadership with a single goal - to provide an effective transportation system. For example, with the current streetcar, you have two lines (double the costs) literally a block away from one another. This serves no purpose, other than adding more "frontage", except to drive up costs. Somewhere along the way someone got the the idea that it had to go down Auburn Avenue which obviously did not come from the idea to provide efficient service in both of terms of headway and costs, but had ulterior motives.

Regarding signal prioritization - this should not be the goal. It has to have it's own ROW otherwise it is useless. Even if a streetcar has signal prioritization, if there is traffic backing up that road it is useless, because there is no where to go. This happens on Edgewood all the time. The streetcar, even if it had signal prioritization, has nowhere to go, because the road it shares with cars is clogged with traffic.

[tikigod311]

Originally Posted by ATLJR

To address some of your post, I wasn't implying that they shouldn't hear public input and I certainly wasn't implying that your input specifically was "too much", so I apologize if it came off that way. What I was implying was there are too many people making decisions trying to cater to too many constituents. There needs to be strong leadership with a single goal - to provide an effective transportation system. For example, with the current streetcar, you have two lines (double the costs) literally a block away from one another. This serves no purpose, other than adding more "frontage", except to drive up costs. Somewhere along the way someone got the the idea that it had to go down Auburn Avenue which obviously did not come from the idea to provide efficient service in both of terms of headway and costs, but had ulterior motives.

Regarding signal prioritization - this should not be the goal. It has to have it's own ROW otherwise it is useless. Even if a streetcar has signal prioritization, if there is traffic backing up that road it is useless, because there is no where to go. This happens on Edgewood all the time. The streetcar, even if it had signal prioritization, has nowhere to go, because the road it shares with cars is clogged with traffic.

The reason it goes down both Edgewood and Auburn is that the current streetcar is going to be used as one of the main crosstown connections. They are going to need a lot more capacity than currently needed. The current streetcar's purpose is to build out a much larger system. It was never meant to stand on its own.

Streetcars by their very definition share ROW. Exclusive ROW crosstown is impossible. We are very very very lucky to have exclusive ROW for the corridor, that really is what makes the Beltline so special. Signal prioritization can make a monumental difference in crosstown routes. The current lack of signal prioritization is what is causing the current backup.