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From that article, what I've been saying all along here:
Quote:
Tim Crimmins, a history professor at Georgia State University, said Cobb may not need a line to Atlanta any longer.
“(In the 1960s and 1970s), downtown (Atlanta) was still the center of the metropolitan region and in the last 45 years what we’ve seen is the development of multiple downtowns, especially in the northern part of the city. So, we have employment nodes at Cobb Galleria and then over in Fulton County and DeKalb County and the Cumberland Mall area,” Crimmins said.
Also..
Quote:
“The connection is less with downtown Atlanta and more access to the principal places of travel in the region, so getting a way to get efficiently to the airport is one concern. Now that Cobb is going to be a venue to the Braves and a big development around there, which of course is part of the Cobb Galleria area, what you have then is the need to provide access to it,” Crimmins said.
So it sounds like MARTA users need a link to Cumberland CID more than Cobb County needs the MARTA link. I think this all boils down to not being willing to pay the 1% for the connection since Cobb doesn't need it as much as MARTA needs Cobb. I figure if MARTA doesn't make it about the 1%, then Cobb will probably let MARTA make the connection on its own dime. My guess is that the Cumberland CID would accept the 1% sales tax (since it would be very beneficial to the CID) but that's all MARTA would probably get out of Cobb County. However, the Cumberland CID is 5% of Georgia's economy, so I think that'd be good money.
Finally,
The prevailing sentiment on MARTA and why Cobb doesn't want MARTA at this point (not saying it's right or wrong). The other fear is that MARTA will take Cobb's money and use it elsewhere:
Quote:
“They’re not responsible with the money. They just spend on union contracts. Literally, I wouldn’t trust them with anybody’s money, much less Cobb taxpayers, and that has nothing to do with race. That has to do with green in the pockets of the people I represent.”
And these outline the comment arguments against heavy rail:
Quote:
“I have no doubt that in 1971 there was a mixture of good reasons and bad reasons for rejecting MARTA, but with 40 years of history to look at in terms of MARTA’s performance, we’ve got a variety of very, very good reasons to not join MARTA,” Setzler said. “Perhaps more now than ever we recognize that the lofty promises made by running heavy rail to communities just didn’t deliver on the prosperity that they promised.”
Quote:
“Heavy rail costs what? $250 million a mile? And takes forever to build,” Ehrhart said. “I mean, there are so many better alternatives now from whether it’s light rail or BRT — and if you have to have public transportation, and that’s a whole ‘nother conversation. I mean, I’m not a big fan of public transportation as purely subsidized. I think there’s some things you can do, but heavy rail is a dinosaur. There’s other ways, even some Maglev options, but we don’t need any more heavy rail.”
Btw, according to the article, it does look like federal money goes through MARTA first like gulch said, but that's not due to state law, CCT being subservient or anything of that nature. It's just how the federal government distributes funds. Shouldn't be read too much into. I also read on wikipedia that there was an attempt in 2009 to replace MARTA with GRTA in this capacity, but it wasn't passed in the state legislature.
Last edited by netdragon; 07-11-2015 at 10:56 PM..
I love this comment in that article. He or she did expose a circular argument Ehrhart uses:
Quote:
Dear God, Earl Ehrhart is such a buffoon. He doesn't like MARTA because MARTA doesn't go to Cobb, and that's why he doesn't think MARTA should go to Cobb. How stupid do you have to be to get elected up there?
From that article, what I've been saying all along here:
Also..
So it sounds like MARTA users need a link to Cumberland CID more than Cobb County needs the MARTA link. I think this all boils down to not being willing to pay the 1% for the connection since Cobb doesn't need it as much as MARTA needs Cobb. I figure if MARTA doesn't make it about the 1%, then Cobb will probably let MARTA make the connection on its own dime. My guess is that the Cumberland CID would accept the 1% sales tax, but that's all MARTA would probably get.
Don't get too far separated from reality now, there are tons of people who move between the city and the Cobb nodes, as well as in reverse. It's not just CoA residents going out. There are TONS of Cobb residents coming in.
The politicians are deluding themselves if/when they don't think that's the case. I mean, have you ever SEEN I-75 under Windy Hill during rush hour? I used to have to go through there on the way to Dobins, and let me tell you, that **** is insane!
The point is that if the line were ONLY going to Cumberland, then it wouldn't be worth it. There wouldn't be the ridership to justify adding a WHOLE NEW HRT line. If the line went past and into Cobb, where Cobb riders would use it for local AS WELL AS longer distance travel, then the ridership would make more sense.
This is doubly so if Gwinnett had already joined and the Revive 285 plan could be adapted into HRT instead of HRT, offering top-end service between the counties and North Fulton. That can only happen if Cobb and Gwinnett join MARTA though!
Until then, you can not expect MARTA to try and serve a county which it does not receive support or funding from, nor pander to its door steps when it makes no sense.
Quote:
Btw, according to the article, it does look like federal money goes through MARTA first, but that's not due to state law, CCT being subservient or anything of that nature. It's just how the federal government distributes funds. Shouldn't be read too much into. I also read on wikipedia that there was an attempt in 2009 to replace MARTA with GRTA in this capacity, but it wasn't passed in the state legislature.
I never said it was a state law. In fact, as I, you, and the article said, it is purely a federal issue. I didn't say that CCT was subservient, simply that it lacks the scale and depth of operating experience that MARTA has available. That is why MARTA is the oversight for things like the streetcar, and who distributes the money. They are the big dog in town.
Yes GRTA was slated to replace MARTA in 2009, as well as absorb CCT, GCT, and Clatyon's Buses. That didn't happen, and so now GRTA is operating as a commuter bus service with CCT and GCT taking up a few of the bus lines for it. I wouldn't honestly mind GRTA taking on its original goal, but only because that would mean we wouldn't have to go back and forth any longer about Cobb not being in the system, and they could get some competent planning and service.
The politicians are deluding themselves if/when they don't think that's the case. I mean, have you ever SEEN I-75 under Windy Hill during rush hour? I used to have to go through there on the way to Dobins, and let me tell you, that **** is insane!
How many of those are going to Atlanta, and how many are from Cobb County? You have to measure trips coming out of the interchange on I-75, subtract out trips coming into Cobb. Then you have to subtract out trips coming in from I-285 including the Smyrna/Vinings and Mableton Cobb residents since they are already so close to Atlanta that the HRT would add time to the trip (e.g. it'd be done so they could read a newspaper, which isn't really a need).
I've seen many studies of commute trips in and out of the county, and those going to Atlanta are a minority of commutes. And it's quite a bit less once you take out Smyrna/Vinings and Mableton.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden
The point is that if the line were ONLY going to Cumberland, then it wouldn't be worth it.
Well worth it. As I said before, Cumberland is 5% of GA's economy. You'd get a LOT of business travelers who currently use limos. You'd get a lot more travel-oriented sales offices moving to Cumberland. You'd get a lot more visitors to Atlanta that don't rent cars coming up to Cumberland to go to the Cobb Performing Arts Center and other things, versus being limited to intown atractions like the Coca Cola Museum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden
There wouldn't be the ridership to justify adding a WHOLE NEW HRT line.
The ridership per mile on the HRT would drop significantly if it went past Cumberland too far. You'd get the most ridership per mile of track by stopping somewhere in the Cumberland CID. Then the LRT/BRT can do a fine job at feeding that small stretch of HRT, for a lot less money.
The entire length of Cobb County is a long way. Think about the fact that MARTA only goes about halfway up and down Fulton County.
Plus, although you'd get the CID's support to connect the CID, you aren't going to get support from Cobb residents to pay to extend it any further along I-75 for decades.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fourthwarden
Until then, you can not expect MARTA to try and serve a county which it does not receive support or funding from, nor pander to its door steps when it makes no sense.
We're not. We're building a BRT/LRT (I prefer LRT, personally) which has stops in Fulton County. If you want MARTA into Cobb, you gotta build it yourself (and probably with the help of the Cumberland CID)
I 75 ITP isn't bad in the morning. When I drive NB on the way to Cumberland I can see that they have a lot more traffic (amount of cars, not congestion), but there no delays unless there's a wreck. Once you take a lot of traffic off 75 going to 285 (mainly PC), 75 gets much better, with fewer lanes. Same story with 85, once you get all that traffic on 285 WB in the morning, 85 SB is great until you throw in 400 traffic. For lines serving 75 in Cobb and 85 in Gwinnett, a connection across the top end is crucial, otherwise much of the car will never leave the roadways.
Agreed. Up until I stopped working downtown Atlanta last September, I used to take I-285 to I-75 from Atlanta Rd interchange in Smyrna even when I didn't have to. Marietta Blvd was slightly faster but liked the laziness and smoothness of the ride taking the highway.
I-75 gets bad North of I-285, starting at approximately Windy Hill (commuting into Atlanta). Sometimes it backs up all the way to Northside Pkwy in Atlanta, but that's rare-ish.
Of course, once you get to the connector at the Brookwood junction around Deering Rd, it gets pretty bad.
Last edited by netdragon; 07-12-2015 at 09:04 AM..
Don't get too far separated from reality now, there are tons of people who move between the city and the Cobb nodes, as well as in reverse. It's not just CoA residents going out. There are TONS of Cobb residents coming in.
The politicians are deluding themselves if/when they don't think that's the case. I mean, have you ever SEEN I-75 under Windy Hill during rush hour? I used to have to go through there on the way to Dobins, and let me tell you, that **** is insane!
The point is that if the line were ONLY going to Cumberland, then it wouldn't be worth it. There wouldn't be the ridership to justify adding a WHOLE NEW HRT line. If the line went past and into Cobb, where Cobb riders would use it for local AS WELL AS longer distance travel, then the ridership would make more sense.
This is doubly so if Gwinnett had already joined and the Revive 285 plan could be adapted into HRT instead of HRT, offering top-end service between the counties and North Fulton. That can only happen if Cobb and Gwinnett join MARTA though!
Until then, you can not expect MARTA to try and serve a county which it does not receive support or funding from, nor pander to its door steps when it makes no sense.
I never said it was a state law. In fact, as I, you, and the article said, it is purely a federal issue. I didn't say that CCT was subservient, simply that it lacks the scale and depth of operating experience that MARTA has available. That is why MARTA is the oversight for things like the streetcar, and who distributes the money. They are the big dog in town.
Yes GRTA was slated to replace MARTA in 2009, as well as absorb CCT, GCT, and Clatyon's Buses. That didn't happen, and so now GRTA is operating as a commuter bus service with CCT and GCT taking up a few of the bus lines for it. I wouldn't honestly mind GRTA taking on its original goal, but only because that would mean we wouldn't have to go back and forth any longer about Cobb not being in the system, and they could get some competent planning and service.
I think Cumberland alone would be worth it. I'm not as certain the rest is worth it, at least not in the short run (10-15 years).
Cool. Dissing Ehrhart is good with me since I just learned he fiddled with the West Cobb school districting to the detriment of McEachern. (Serves him right that most of the new expensive subdivisions are in McEachern/Varner district and not Hillgrove)
I think Cumberland alone would be worth it. I'm not as certain the rest is worth it, at least not in the short run (10-15 years).
Yeah. As I've been saying, I think HRT to Cumberland and from there LRT/BRT to town center on dedicated lanes would be sufficient for the time being for those commuting up/down I-75. I also think the top end 285 LRT is needed. Having to transfer at Lindbergh is unacceptable, especially since no MARTA express trains exist.
I do think the LRT/BRT connection from Cumberland to Arts Center using commuter lanes is going to prove insufficient very quickly. It's essentially the same as what already exists. The beltline stop may offer a way onto rail a slight bit faster when that part of the beltline is built, but not substantially.
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