MARTA to make an $8 billion pitch to change the face of Atlanta (Alpharetta: sold, roads)
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MARTA is Atlanta, just as Metro is DC.
And no, it's not better than nothing. It will just increase the economic inequality as those who rely on transit will be forgotten and a federal lawsuit will be brought against the transit agency.
Bingo. That whole "plan" would end up collapsing in failure and be an enormous waste of money.
So, i'm all for discussing this, but why isn't this discussion going on in the other MARTA regional / Cagle threads? Just curious...
Anyway, yeah, this looks like Cagle getting ready to try a take-over. I like that he specifically said that it isn't a take-over, but he does little to make it not sound like it.
To answer the question of how this could be a power take over, I'd like you to discard this notion of ITP vs. OTP for a second. The MARTA board has 11 officers, 3 from the City of Atlanta, 3 from Fulton, 3 from DeKalb, and 2 from Clayton. The MARTA board also has 2 Ex-officio members, 1 from the Georgia Department of Transportation, and 1 from the Georgia Regional Transportation Authority.
Were Gwinnett and Cobb to both join, they would likely get 3 members each, for 6 against the existing 11.
So, where is the power divide? It's where it's always been, not along the perimeter, but along party lines. It's a classic conservatives vs. liberal battle. Of course there's much more nuance than just the labels imply, but that's the general breakdown. Please don't get bogged down into the specifics of political ideology here, I'm working in broad terms.
For 'liberals' you get:
3 From Atlanta
2 From Fulton
3 from DeKalb
2 from Clayton
Total: 10
For 'conservatives' you get:
1 From Fulton
3 From Cobb
3 From Gwinnett
Total : 7
I'm assuming at least one Fulton rep is from the more transit adverse northern political group. The issue for the state with having both the GRTA and GDoT reps be voting members, beside the fact that it doesn't balance, nor give majority to the 'conservatives', is that there's no guarantee that they will follow the state's ideas.
GDoT wants to expand rail. They would love to have regional and state based commuter rail under construction. GDoT recognizes the need for it, just as much as we do, but they are limited in their available funding. Someone who is on the MARTA board, though, may not feel as obligated to follow the state when they have a chance to actually help expand alternative transportation. GRTA is in a somewhat similar boat. They are, after all, a transit agency themselves.
So what you really end up with is a couple of wild cards that couldn't overturn across party lines anyway.
So what do you do? You paint MARTA as a failing, underused system that those darned city folk have run into the ground. MARTA couldn't expand out to the metro, not because of suffocating state laws, a lack of funding, or even those counties, but because it is purely incompetent. The reality, in the past, has been a mix of it all. Recently, it's more about the first few reasons rather than the last.
Once you paint it like that (the Grady Hospital Comparison from the interview) you can justify a take over. How nice the state is being, offering the thing the agency has been asking for all this time AND a helping hand getting their house in order! Isn't the state being so nice? No.
When pressed for specifics, Cagle either has no idea, or he doesn't want to say. I don't know which, but the way he stammers over the question makes me think it's the first. He is hoping that the committee finds something, anything to justify a state take over, or at least a reworking of the governing board. I do think he knows what he wants to do with the governance, just that he doesn't have anything to really justify it with. Yet.
If the state, if Cagle really wanted to help with transit in the region, there're MANY more things to be done than trying to take over control of MARTA. They could open up annual grants for agencies across the state to compete for for transit upgrades and expansions. They could fund GRTA and GDoT for regional commuter rail and intra-state rail. They could expidiate the southeast corridor HSR. They could add revenue sources / additional tax methods to MARTA's, and GRTA's arsenal.
Of course these aren't the things being suggested by Cagle, though. It's a re-working of MARTA's governance. It is nothing but an attempt to shift power for short-minded goals and interests.
So, i'm all for discussing this, but why isn't this discussion going on in the other MARTA regional / Cagle threads? Just curious...
Anyway, yeah, this looks like Cagle getting ready to try a take-over. I like that he specifically said that it isn't a take-over, but he does little to make it not sound like it.
To answer the question of how this could be a power take over, I'd like you to discard this notion of ITP vs. OTP for a second. The MARTA board has 11 officers, 3 from the City of Atlanta, 3 from Fulton, 3 from DeKalb, and 2 from Clayton. The MARTA board also has 2 Ex-officio members, 1 from the Georgia Department of Transportation, and 1 from the Georgia Regional Transportation Authority.
Were Gwinnett and Cobb to both join, they would likely get 3 members each, for 6 against the existing 11.
So, where is the power divide? It's where it's always been, not along the perimeter, but along party lines. It's a classic conservatives vs. liberal battle. Of course there's much more nuance than just the labels imply, but that's the general breakdown. Please don't get bogged down into the specifics of political ideology here, I'm working in broad terms.
For 'liberals' you get:
3 From Atlanta
2 From Fulton
3 from DeKalb
2 from Clayton
Total: 10
For 'conservatives' you get:
1 From Fulton
3 From Cobb
3 From Gwinnett
Total : 7
I'm assuming at least one Fulton rep is from the more transit adverse northern political group. The issue for the state with having both the GRTA and GDoT reps be voting members, beside the fact that it doesn't balance, nor give majority to the 'conservatives', is that there's no guarantee that they will follow the state's ideas.
GDoT wants to expand rail. They would love to have regional and state based commuter rail under construction. GDoT recognizes the need for it, just as much as we do, but they are limited in their available funding. Someone who is on the MARTA board, though, may not feel as obligated to follow the state when they have a chance to actually help expand alternative transportation. GRTA is in a somewhat similar boat. They are, after all, a transit agency themselves.
So what you really end up with is a couple of wild cards that couldn't overturn across party lines anyway.
So what do you do? You paint MARTA as a failing, underused system that those darned city folk have run into the ground. MARTA couldn't expand out to the metro, not because of suffocating state laws, a lack of funding, or even those counties, but because it is purely incompetent. The reality, in the past, has been a mix of it all. Recently, it's more about the first few reasons rather than the last.
Once you paint it like that (the Grady Hospital Comparison from the interview) you can justify a take over. How nice the state is being, offering the thing the agency has been asking for all this time AND a helping hand getting their house in order! Isn't the state being so nice? No.
When pressed for specifics, Cagle either has no idea, or he doesn't want to say. I don't know which, but the way he stammers over the question makes me think it's the first. He is hoping that the committee finds something, anything to justify a state take over, or at least a reworking of the governing board. I do think he knows what he wants to do with the governance, just that he doesn't have anything to really justify it with. Yet.
If the state, if Cagle really wanted to help with transit in the region, there're MANY more things to be done than trying to take over control of MARTA. They could open up annual grants for agencies across the state to compete for for transit upgrades and expansions. They could fund GRTA and GDoT for regional commuter rail and intra-state rail. They could expidiate the southeast corridor HSR. They could add revenue sources / additional tax methods to MARTA's, and GRTA's arsenal.
Of course these aren't the things being suggested by Cagle, though. It's a re-working of MARTA's governance. It is nothing but an attempt to shift power for short-minded goals and interests.
This thread is newer and he did talk about the $8B sales tax failure.
MARTA is also a state-level agency.
They could give GDOT and GRTA freedom to do use the gas-tax revenue to build and operate commuter rail
MARTA is Atlanta, just as Metro is DC.
And no, it's not better than nothing. It will just increase the economic inequality as those who rely on transit will be forgotten and a federal lawsuit will be brought against the transit agency.
Yeah, well, hello, we live in Georgia. We can dream all we want, but in-town pro-transit liberals have very little political power or pull regionally or at the state level, especially with this stuff. Conservative type people mostly way out in Atlanta's outer suburbs who think MARTA brings poor and black people (excuse me, "crime"), have pretty much all the power and say in it. So, as a result, ultimately it's going to be their way, or quite literally the highway.
What will likely happen (I'm guessing) is that at least the existing heavy rail and bus route network ITP will basically stay how it is, and may or may not still be called MARTA. But they might slowly start to re-brand it, we'll see.
Then whatever transit entity that operates both inside and outside the 3 current MARTA counties, will be its own type of service, rather than just extension of MARTA lines and routes.
All of this will ultimately come down to Gwinnett and Cobb especially wanting to have high capacity transit but also wanting to maintain a different "feel" than Fulton and DeKalb. Or whatever. And it will come down to the fact that the next likely governor, Cagle or someone like him, cannot politically achieve that statewide office if they respect Keith Parker or in-town interests. It's just reality. Transit will become serious but it will be a suburbs/park&ride/commuter oriented version of it.
This thread is newer and he did talk about the $8B sales tax failure.
MARTA is also a state-level agency.
They could give GDOT and GRTA freedom to do use the gas-tax revenue to build and operate commuter rail
Did I say/imply MARTA wasn't a state agency? I didn't mean to if I did.
You're right about GDoT and GRTA, and that's kinda what I was alluding to with the whole 'expand tax revenue arsenals'. As always, a diverse portfolio is a strong one, and I don't like being reliant on one tax, let alone a regressive one.
Did I say/imply MARTA wasn't a state agency? I didn't mean to if I did.
You're right about GDoT and GRTA, and that's kinda what I was alluding to with the whole 'expand tax revenue arsenals'. As always, a diverse portfolio is a strong one, and I don't like being reliant on one tax, let alone a regressive one.
Yeah, well, hello, we live in Georgia. We can dream all we want, but in-town pro-transit liberals have very little political power or pull regionally or at the state level, especially with this stuff. Conservative type people mostly way out in Atlanta's outer suburbs who think MARTA brings poor and black people (excuse me, "crime"), have pretty much all the power and say in it. So, as a result, ultimately it's going to be their way, or quite literally the highway.
What will likely happen (I'm guessing) is that at least the existing heavy rail and bus route network ITP will basically stay how it is, and may or may not still be called MARTA. But they might slowly start to re-brand it, we'll see.
Then whatever transit entity that operates both inside and outside the 3 current MARTA counties, will be its own type of service, rather than just extension of MARTA lines and routes.
All of this will ultimately come down to Gwinnett and Cobb especially wanting to have high capacity transit but also wanting to maintain a different "feel" than Fulton and DeKalb. Or whatever. And it will come down to the fact that the next likely governor, Cagle or someone like him, cannot politically achieve that statewide office if they respect Keith Parker or in-town interests. It's just reality. Transit will become serious but it will be a suburbs/park&ride/commuter oriented version of it.
My point being that MARTA is part of Atlanta's identity just as Metro is part of DC or NYC subway is part of NYC.
If it takes them rebranding and changing it (whitening it) for it to be expanded, then Cobb and Gwinnett can sit in their congestion and suffer.
If it takes them rebranding and changing it (whitening it) for it to be expanded, then Cobb and Gwinnett can sit in their congestion and suffer.
Or so you and I wish, but chances are we won't get our way about that.
And I would even concede that MARTA could use a new image and some fundamental re-thinking, especially with how the bus system works. I would still keep the MARTA name, though.
My point being that MARTA is part of Atlanta's identity just as Metro is part of DC or NYC subway is part of NYC.
If it takes them rebranding and changing it (whitening it) for it to be expanded, then Cobb and Gwinnett can sit in their congestion and suffer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech
Or so you and I wish, but chances are we won't get our way about that.
And I would even concede that MARTA could use a new image and some fundamental re-thinking, especially with how the bus system works. I would still keep the MARTA name, though.
Primal, I think you might be misunderstanding the sheer amount of trouble that would cause the state if they tried to rebrand and internally regovern MARTA. Atlanta, to me, is generally pretty skittish when it comes to the state messing with stuff around the city. We've been burned (heh, Sherman joke) before, and we've pushed back before.
The rest of the state might have the political clout, but Atlanta has a large chunk of the economic clout. I'm not sure the rest of the state is ready to deal with the drama and massive amount of push back that it would get by meddling with something as integrated into the city's identity as MARTA. For the most part, I don't think the rest of the state cares enough to really fight for it, outside of a few of the metro counties.
I'm not saying it won't be tried, but I'm not so certain it will be successful.
So what do you do? You paint MARTA as a failing, underused system that those darned city folk have run into the ground. MARTA couldn't expand out to the metro, not because of suffocating state laws, a lack of funding, or even those counties, but because it is purely incompetent. The reality, in the past, has been a mix of it all. Recently, it's more about the first few reasons rather than the last.
Everyone at least ITP and within the state gov knows what a great job Keith Parker is doing by turning MARTA around. Hopefully once the city of Atlanta pass the transportation bill in NOV that will make his "MARTA is failing" statement even more ludicrous. He should have tried to do this 5 years ago before Keith came abroad. Its too late to do this now
Last edited by fieldm; 05-18-2016 at 03:30 PM..
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