MARTA visiting Emory/CDC area to discuss expansion (Atlanta, Roswell: schools, living in)

[DirkMcGirt]

Originally Posted by Gulch

Actually, the correction would lend even more credence to the project (232,000 per day ridership > 232,000 weekly ridership).

How do you figure?

The other posters' entire premise was based on daily ridership per mile of Clifton being equal to the daily ridership per mile of the rest of the MARTA system. He/She didn't do the simple math correctly and made bad assessments. The real assessment is that this $1.2 billion LRT expansion would have about 40% (not an equal number) of the average daily rides per mile of the rest of the MARTA system. It is an awful investment and generates an awful taxpayer return.

The correction does nothing but weaken the credentials of the project. Feel free to try to explain how you came to your conclusion, but be aware, bad math and faulty conclusions will be corrected... again.

[DirkMcGirt]

Originally Posted by Gulch

Actually, the correction would lend even more credence to the project (232,000 per day ridership > 232,000 weekly ridership).

I think I've figured out why you are so incorrect in this statement.

It appears that you are confused and that you haven't done a lick of research, because the 232,000 figure is the number of boardings daily on existing MARTA rail system. MARTA is projecting the $1.2 billion 8.7 mile LRT expansion to add just 17,800 boardings per day.

[Gulch]

Originally Posted by DirkMcGirt

I think I've figured out why you are so incorrect in this statement.

It appears that you are confused and that you haven't done a lick of research, because the 232,000 figure is the number of boardings daily on existing MARTA rail system. MARTA is projecting the $1.2 billion 8.7 mile LRT expansion to add just 17,800 boardings per day.

I was only disseminating the difference between daily and weekly boardings (fourthwarden incorrectly stated that MARTA had 232K riders/week when it was 232K/day). I probably should've worded it better.

But don't let that stop you from being so condescending, since that's been your M.O. as a poster.

[toll_booth]

Originally Posted by primaltech

I used to live near an active freight rail track in Gwinnett, and the sound of the trains actually helped me get to sleep. It was very soothing. Granted, it wasn't right behind the wall or anything, and was probably nicely muffled by trees. But as has also been said, this Emory area already has an active railroad, which is noisier than MARTA, and those trains are way longer. So, I don't get why the community would settle for a slower, lower capacity rail service if it's close to the same cost and everything, because of "noise". Especially if it's running mostly underground. But whatever.

Frankly, I think that train noise is a smokescreen for whatever their real reasons for opposing HRT in the Clifton corridor.

[primaltech]

I bet heavy rail could probably even save money, because you could combine the Emory Point and Emory Rollins stops into one station, and most definitely the Suburban Plaza and DeKalb Medical stations would be combined into one.

Also, Lindbergh and Avondale wouldn't hardly need to be touched. Just maybe some signage. The southbound platform at Lindbergh would also serve Blue line trains heading southeast. Avondale's eastbound platform would serve northwest-bound Blue line trains.

[primaltech]

With HRT, you could do the whole corridor with just 5 stations:

Cheshire Bridge/Morningside
Sage Hill/Briarcliff
Emory University/Emory Hospital/CDC
Emory Clairmont/North Decatur
Suburban Plaza/DeKalb Medical

Just sayin'. Would be better, and would require no transfer between these areas and downtown Decatur.

[cqholt]

Originally Posted by primaltech

With HRT, you could do the whole corridor with just 5 stations:

Cheshire Bridge/Morningside
Sage Hill/Briarcliff
Emory University/Emory Hospital/CDC
Emory Clairmont/North Decatur
Suburban Plaza/DeKalb Medical

Just sayin'. Would be better, and would require no transfer between these areas and downtown Decatur.

It would require more tunneling and aerial structures. Avondale would have to rebuilt. Unlike the proposed LRT, HRT cannot travel in a median. This is why the HRT plan only went from Lindbergh to North Decatur. Also the turning radi of railcars would only allow southbound HRT railcars to continue to the Emory Line.

[fourthwarden]

Originally Posted by DirkMcGirt

So considering that your support for the $1.2 billion expenditure was based on awful math... do you still support the project, or are you willing to admit that the ridership does not support the expenditure?

Short answer: no, I'm not ready to back away from accepting this project.

I suppose I should ask, what would be your cutoff for an acceptable ridership? It's not enough to call a project bad, you have to give why you think it's bad. What do you consider an acceptable cost to new rider ratio? Not only that, bu you say that MARTA should find a corridor will meet this unspecified value, without actually giving any ideas where.

For example, I-20 East (PageES-18, Table ES-6, HRT 3) is expected to see only 6,400 new riders, at ~$1.88 Bil. that's $193,750 per new rider. I-20 East is expected to see 28,700 boardings, that's $65,505 per boarding.

In contrast, Clifton Corridor is expected to see 5,450 new riders, at ~$1.2 Bil. that's $220,184 per new rider. Cifton Corridor is expected to see 17,800 boardings, that's $67,415 per boarding.

Granted they're not equal, but with the higher-property values and more dense land-use along the corridor, I can see why.

That's part of why I'm not really ready to back away from Clifton Corridor: I can't think of a corridor that would produce better ridership that MARTA can build in, and that isn't already being worked on. MARTA has their I-20 & Connect 400 studies going. Clayton Rail is being worked on. ABI and CoA are working on the streetcars and Beltline Transit, both of which MARTA has also said they would help with if wanted.

There are in demand corridors in the metro, but they tend to cross into counties not part of MARTA, like Cobb and Gwinnett.

So, I'm all ears as to what you have to say as far as specifics go, but until I can think of one, or anyone else comes up with a place where the $1.2 Bil. could go that would do better, then I'll stick to the Clifton Corridor.

Originally Posted by cqholt

It would require more tunneling and aerial structures. Avondale would have to rebuilt. Unlike the proposed LRT, HRT cannot travel in a median. This is why the HRT plan only went from Lindbergh to North Decatur. Also the turning radi of railcars would only allow southbound HRT railcars to continue to the Emory Line.

Exactly. That, and MARTA is considering how the stations interact with the area around them in terms of bike/ped availability. That's one of the metrics that the LRT 1 alternative scored higher in than HRT since HRT stations take up much more space, displacing much more land. HRT also has fewer stations, and a shorter reach, which means that it doesn't cover the same footprint that LRT can for the same cost.

I would imagine that, to cut costs a bit, you could remove a few of the aerials at intersections, replacing them with LRT specific signals that give priority to trains. It would slow them a bit, but not so much as to be much of a travel time issue.

[primaltech]

The justification for this line is not just about raw numbers. There's the opened up potential for future dense growth near the new stations, plus there's just intangible benefits, that you can't really quantify.

The rail map will just plain look better. A huge new area will be covered by the system. People from the north suburbs who are not typical MARTA riders today, might suddenly be enticed to ride on the new line and explore the very nice Emory area. People who work at Emory will be able to get there from around the metro. Especially will have an impact once Red line is expanded 5 stations north, Green line is expanded 5 stations southeast, and hopefully someday Gold will extend 5 more stations northeast into the suburbs. Then suddenly all those regions are connected to Emory, Cheshire Bridge, etc. It makes a lot of sense, not just for the corridor served, but for MARTA's future and reputation in general.

Office towers full of jobs could go up near the new stations, supported by direct transit station connections, like State Farm is doing.

Light rail or heavy rail, either way it is going to happen and it's going to be a huge, huge win.

[MattCW]

Originally Posted by DirkMcGirt

There is no ROI on spending $1.2 billion to allow existing users more mobility. If you are going to drop $1.2 billion, there needs to be huge incremental growth to ridership. If this route doesn't provide new riders, the find an expansion that will.

So you'd rather spend maybe $800 Million on a pair of Lexus lanes to nowhere?

It is this 'non business' mindset that led MARTA into an abyss of red numbers. They start taking a business mindset and listening to the auditor's suggestions and suddenly MARTA is in the black. Don't go back to the old, foolish governmental way of thinking. Run MARTA like a business and make sound financial decisions. This isn't a hard concept.

WRONG! The STATE should be run like a business, ONE business! Which means accepting some unprofitable departments. Do a business's HR, Legal, IT, mailroom departments make it any money? NO! But the rest of the business makes money as a result of those "money sinks" operating. If you're going to try and force MARTA to operate like a business, then why not the courts? Education? Police? Heck, while you're at it, we should make the Governor work to make a profit rather than subsidizing his office.

Plus, MARTA predicted a total of 17,800 boardings daily (in 2030) on the 8.7 miles of rail. That is less than 2,000 boardings per mile of rail. MARTA rail averages about 4,800 riders per mile. Your incorrect assumptions are based on your incorrect math in your previous post. This is very simple math.

So 2000 boardings (actually a decent bit more) puts the Clifton LRT right in the range of TacomaLINK, Portland's MAX, the San Diego Trolley, Portland Streetcar and LA Metro Rail. I fail to see the issue if the projections (which usually fall short) already put us in the same league of other national successes. You're also talking about a small segment of the system. I'd love to break down other 8.6 mile segments of MARTA to find out what their ridership is. I imagine the west line and possibly northern end of the Red Line are comparable to Clifton.

Originally Posted by primaltech

*SNIP*
And then as far as what to do with Indian Creek, with its planned new north/south alignment, yes I would demolish those highway ramps, and orient it as a local community station for the surrounding residential area, much like Covington and the other new stations will be.

Originally Posted by toll_booth

Honestly, they should just demolish that flyover ramp once it's time to expand the Blue Line southeastward.

I think the ramps should stay. Covington Highway isn't designed as a massive commuter station, and people coming up I-285 would have to go a long way out of their way to get to Wesley Chapel. It'd cost a lot of money to remove them. Just leave them and reconfigure the internal roadways to support whatever development will go in around the reconfigured station.

Originally Posted by primaltech

With HRT, you could do the whole corridor with just 5 stations:

Cheshire Bridge/Morningside
Sage Hill/Briarcliff
Emory University/Emory Hospital/CDC
Emory Clairmont/North Decatur
Suburban Plaza/DeKalb Medical

Just sayin'. Would be better, and would require no transfer between these areas and downtown Decatur.

But would that adequately serve the corridor though? HRT stations are big and can easily take 2-4 minutes from entering the faregates to reaching the platform. With Light rail, you're basically right there.

Originally Posted by cqholt

It would require more tunneling and aerial structures. Avondale would have to rebuilt. Unlike the proposed LRT, HRT cannot travel in a median. This is why the HRT plan only went from Lindbergh to North Decatur. Also the turning radi of railcars would only allow southbound HRT railcars to continue to the Emory Line.

I don't think a HRT version of the full Clifton route would require any extra tunneling, and Avondale would not have to be rebuilt. You could easily build new viaducts coming off the existing viaducts to Kensington, the follow the old industrial spur RoW NE behind the farmer's market, then curve it gently toward N Decatur road with the first stop aerial at Dekalb Industrial, then another aerial stop on top of Church Street before diving underground in Suburban Plaza and continuing. But as I say above, HRT isn't the greatest for readily accessible stations. Except for Emory and CDC, the Clifton corridor doesn't have many mega destinations, the other stations are neighborhood stations, the kinds people will use to go shopping, or pop off at after work to grab a bite before continuing the journey home.