"How not to become Atlanta" (neighborhood, design)

[bu2]

Originally Posted by AtlantaIsHot

Rather than use sprawly sunbelt standards as my guide, I'd rather consider growing the city population in a more dense fashion. Let's remember than Detroit is 140 square miles, but once housed 1.8 million (shockingly in mostly single family homes and lowrise buildings). Philadelphia is 135 square miles, but once housed 2.1 million (again in lowrise structures). I would rather look up to these as examples than Jacksonville, Florida which is 900 square miles and 850,000.


I wouldn't want to see Atlanta lose it's trees, so I think highrise development is the best way to grow it's population rather than bulldozing forests to make way for lowrise housing so dense there is no room for trees.

Jacksonville is the result of a city-county merger.

[AtlantaIsHot]

Originally Posted by bu2

Jacksonville is the result of a city-county merger.

I know. Nashville is too. It's the same result as annexation though. Expanding the city limit as far as possible to pull in any and all possible areas.

[chiatldal]

Originally Posted by JoeP

I understand what you are saying, but city populations mean nothing.

Case in point - Jacksonville, OK City, Houston all have very large limits and should be able to control their destiny in what would be suburbs in other cities like Atlanta and most northern cities, but they don't.

It's all sprawl, but it's sprawl within the political boundary of the city.

These cities throw away the advantage that they have. Charlotte is in danger of that too.

Something else to consider when looking at populations cities had 70 years ago in small borders is that
families were larger and crowded in smaller homes.

That is not going to return.

If you think my point was about city population in itself you are missing my point. My point was about the city to suburban ratio, coordination between Municipalities and balkanization. The more people stay in the city vs metro itself the more political power the city has in it's own metro.


But the bold is not true.

Just cause Atlanta has the sq mi of a Northeastern city doesn't mean it has as much political control as a northeast city on it's metro. Because Atlanta doesn't have the population compare metro Atlanta. 1/10 almost 1/11.

Obliviously Atlanta's heavy rail is better than a light rail. But there's a reason why DFW manage to build light rail across the metro. And Atlanta isn't extending light rail in Cobb and Gwinnett. This because Atlanta has far worst political balkanization than DFW.





I also address "sprawl is sprawl". because Atlanta is 132 sq mi their this mentally that anything out side the city is immediately sprawl. The first ring of suburbs is not sprawl. The first ring of Atlanta suburbs would be insides the city limits of other Sunbelt cities.

2,000 sq mi is not sprawl that relative normal 8,000 sq mi is sprawl, these are metropolitan across the world.


NY...................... 13,318 sq mi
LA..................... 4,850.3 sq mi
Chicago.............. 10,856 sq mi
DFW.................. 9,286 sq mi
Houston............ 10,062 sq mi
Philly...................5,118 sq mi
DC ...................... 5,564.6 sq mi
Miami...................


Seattle ................. 5,872.35 sq mi
Minneapolis............ 8,120 sq mi
Tampa .................. 2,554.5 sq mi
St. Louis.................. 8,458 sq mi
Portland................ 6,684 sq mi

Austin ............... 4,279 sq mi


Toronto ................ 2,750.65 sq mi
Tokyo.................. 5,419 sq mi
Paris...................... 4,638 sq mi



Cobb and Gwinnett leaders act like they are far Atlanta

And yall are anti Cobb and Gwinnett growth like they far from Atlanta.

Meanwhile Cobb and Gwinnett are under 1,800 sq mi, Most Atlanta edgcities are less 600 sq mi of the center of metro.

My point was even though Cobb and Gwinnett are not apart of the city. It would be better if metro leaders had mentally they are defacto.

This how London, Tokyo, Lagos, Mexico City, Sao Paulo, Dubai and etc they not actually cities they are a tiny conurbation that function together.

1. The City of London is only 1.12 sq mi
Cit of London

2. When people say "London" they are referring to "greater London" 607 sq mi
London

3. Which is not the Larger Metropolitan
London commuter belt


1. The Original city Tokyo is now the special wards.
Special wards of Tokyo

2. ] Tokyo is a prefectures of Japan, What is refer to as Tokyo the city 844.66 sq mi conurbation "Tokyo Metropolis"
Tokyo

3. Which is not the Larger 5,419 sq mi Metropolitan
Greater Tokyo Area


What I'm saying


1. City of Atlanta 132 sq mi

2. 5 county core less than 1,800 sq mi 5 counties is like 90% of the region economic activity and about 75% of the region population.

3. Then you have the rest of metro 8,000 sq mi

Atlanta's Population Set to Soar to 8 Million by 2040 - Population Projections - Curbed Atlanta

Region to add 3 million in 30 years, ARC says | www.ajc.com


Metro Atlanta is projected to Add 3 to get 8 million. This means not just CoA needs to infill but Fulton, Cobb, and Gwinnett have to infill.

[chiatldal]

Originally Posted by Mutiny77

I have to disagree with this. Atlanta's core grew in a more linear fashion due to the lack of a downtown loop and the north/south MARTA line. Charlotte's 277 loop constrains growth in the core and surrounding areas and LYNX won't have the same effect on the city that MARTA did on Atlanta. You're simply not going to see Tryon Street littered with CBDs from Uptown northward, with a suburban CBD developing into the largest in the region in terms of office space as has happened in Atlanta. Charlotte's core is becoming ever more centralized and won't develop like Atlanta's in that respect.

I'm not talking about CBD's but right around them.

I'm not saying Charlotte is like Druid Hills I'm saying Charlotte kinda skips to Morningside like neighborhoods. Charlotte doesn't have this ring of smaller lots neighborhood, like Old Fourth Ward, Sweet Aurburn, Cabbagetown, Virginia-Highland, Grant Park, of historically density of the west neighborhoods before a lot of home were razed.

But I think get what your saying Charlotte will invest more in the density of Uptown rather than growing A midtown like Atlanta has. I think Charlotte Uptown is going to be nice

[Mutiny77]

Originally Posted by chiatldal

I'm not talking about CBD's but right around them.

I'm not saying Charlotte is like Druid Hills I'm saying Charlotte kinda skips to Morningside like neighborhoods. Charlotte doesn't have this ring of smaller lots neighborhood, like Old Fourth Ward, Sweet Aurburn, Cabbagetown, Virginia-Highland, Grant Park, of historically density of the west neighborhoods before a lot of home were razed.

Actually Charlotte does, but it doesn't have as many of those old neighborhoods as Atlanta and they aren't as big. Examples would be Historic Fourth Ward, Dilworth, Plaza-Midwood, North Davidson (NoDa), Wesley Heights, Wilmore, Elizabeth, etc.

But I think get what your saying Charlotte will invest more in the density of Uptown rather than growing A midtown like Atlanta has. I think Charlotte Uptown is going to be nice

Yes, that's what I was getting at.

[JoeP]

But the bold is not true.

Reality shows otherwise. Perimeter is not the city of Atlanta. The city of Atlanta can't control what Dunwoody or Sandy Springs do. However Houston can control what happens in its broader city limits that encompass edge cities. Houston etc. should be able to avoid some of Atlanta's limitations, yet it does
the exact same thing - create unsustainable sprawl.

The only difference is that the unsustainable sprawl is within city limits.

Actually Atlanta does have such a mess within its city limits. It's called Buckhead.

[AnsleyPark]

Originally Posted by JoeP

Actually Atlanta does have such a mess within its city limits. It's called Buckhead.

I'm not so sure we can label the most affluent part of town as a "mess."

[Mutiny77]

Originally Posted by AnsleyPark

I'm not so sure we can label the most affluent part of town as a "mess."

Right. Calling Buckhead an unsustainable mess of sprawl is a huge stretch. It's not the most urban area but far from being the most suburban, car-centric sprawl-oriented place too.

[thatguydownsouth]

Originally Posted by AtlantaIsHot

Rather than use sprawly sunbelt standards as my guide, I'd rather consider growing the city population in a more dense fashion. Let's remember than Detroit is 140 square miles, but once housed 1.8 million (shockingly in mostly single family homes and lowrise buildings). Philadelphia is 135 square miles, but once housed 2.1 million (again in lowrise structures). I would rather look up to these as examples than Jacksonville, Florida which is 900 square miles and 850,000.


I wouldn't want to see Atlanta lose it's trees, so I think highrise development is the best way to grow it's population rather than bulldozing forests to make way for lowrise housing so dense there is no room for trees.

Jacksonville is a poor example of anything, this from a native. We are too big with too few jobs. We are basically the result of city planners allowing any and all forest to be torn down for suburbs. We have an entire quadrant (Northside) that is so poor and violence ridden that police only go there heavily armed and in high numbers.

[bu2]

[quote=chiatldal;42858899]If you think my point was about city population in itself you are missing my point. My point was about the city to suburban ratio, coordination between Municipalities and balkanization. The more people stay in the city vs metro itself the more political power the city has in it's own metro.


But the bold is not true.

Just cause Atlanta has the sq mi of a Northeastern city doesn't mean it has as much political control as a northeast city on it's metro. Because Atlanta doesn't have the population compare metro Atlanta. 1/10 almost 1/11.

Obliviously Atlanta's heavy rail is better than a light rail. But there's a reason why DFW manage to build light rail across the metro. And Atlanta isn't extending light rail in Cobb and Gwinnett. This because Atlanta has far worst political balkanization than DFW.




DFW has it across the metro because they sat down with the suburbs and everyone agreed.

The city of Atlanta is every bit as parochial, if not more so, than Cobb and Gwinnett. If some of you were actually able to critically listen to yourselves, you would understand. Its not because DFW forced their way on the rest. That is absolutely NOT what happened.