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I don't think there are very many people doing that trip so I don't think its a good argument. Gavel is just determined to build his baby.
He ought to be really pushing for the southeast section which is densifying.
Piedmont Hospital is a major employer, that and getting Buckhead's buy-in on the BRN is part of the reasoning for this latest push. Previous posts have focused on Southside BeltLine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by primaltech
Even taking potential Cobb connections out of the equation, the Tilford corridor is such a great opportunity for a cost-effective light rail line for the NW part of the city, which could have all kinds of TOD development built along with it, in all that acreage.
Bolton, Riverside, etc- these are neighborhoods inside the City of Atlanta, that pay for all these taxes along with the rest of the city. Give these areas a MARTA light rail.
Get a P3 on it, or something. Actual quality light rail in its own corridor is a good use of your tax money. As opposed to the streetcar.
IMO The Clfiton Corridor and a potential connection to Cobb via Tilford would be perfectly suited for DMUs, with the Armour infill station. Double track the corridor, where possible similar to Clayton County proposal. Eventual extension to Tucker and Lawrenceville.
Yes, it does. The current plan already expects Dekalb or some other source to pay for the majority of the corridor--More MARTA, including the assumed federal match, would pay ~40% of the total cost of the corridor under the current plan. Just like there aren't enough funds in Atlanta to pay for all of the good projects, there won't be elsewhere. If Atlanta cuts back its funding and prioritization of the Clifton Corridor, other jurisdictions will too, and the project will be in serious jeopardy.
MARTA scores the Clifton Corridor highly for a reason. The Clifton Corridor is projected to get nearly double the ridership as the entire 22-mile Beltline loop. That's for a project that would cost the City of Atlanta less than half what the entire 22-mile loop would cost, thanks to the already-assumed funding of ~60% of the corridor from Dekalb. Yes, that's right, nearly twice the ridership for half the cost to the city.
I will repeat what I said before: the argument should not be about funding the Beltline instead of the Clifton Corridor. It should be about finding more funds for the Beltline and the other streetcar lines. If we cannot identify more money for transit investments than just the current More MARTA tax, we're not going to ever have a particularly good transit system, Beltline rail or not.
Marta has proposed to fund Phase 1 of the Clifton Corridor 100% from MoreMarta revenue (+ assumed federal match). It does not "expect Dekalb or some other source" to pay for any part of phase 1.
We don't need to find other funding for the Beltline. The city voted to tax itself for 40 years to fund the Beltline. That's the whole point.
Marta has proposed to fund Phase 1 of the Clifton Corridor 100% from MoreMarta revenue (+ assumed federal match). It does not "expect Dekalb or some other source" to pay for any part of phase 1..
Marta has proposed to fund Phase 1 of the Clifton Corridor 100% from MoreMarta revenue (+ assumed federal match). It does not "expect Dekalb or some other source" to pay for any part of phase 1.
We don't need to find other funding for the Beltline. The city voted to tax itself for 40 years to fund the Beltline. That's the whole point.
The city voted to tax itself for 40 years to fund $11 billion in projects out of a $2.5 billion budget. There are numerous great projects that have to be trimmed unless more money is identified.
For some historical perspective on the funds for the Beltline: when it was originally approved by Mayor Franklin and the City Council in 2005, the only source of local funds for the entire project, including parks, trails, and transit, was supposed to be the TADs. All other funds, again, to complete the entire project, were to come from philanthropic and federal sources. Even as recently as 2013, the Beltline was saying it only needed $891 million from "unidentified sources" to complete its entire budget for all capital and operating costs, including the trails, the parks, and the rail. It's now asking for ~$1.5 billion from More MARTA (including an assumed federal match) in order to build and operate the full 22-mile loop. Why does the goalpost keep moving so dramatically for outside funds wrt the Beltline?
To be completely clear: I support the Beltline, but the NW rail would be extremely expensive and cannot even be built right now not matter how much money is available for it. I think the Campbellton Road LRT should be scrapped and all of that money moved to Beltline to build out the SE rail and whatever else can be done with the leftover money. Armour Infill Station likely makes sense as part of that.
Marta has proposed to fund Phase 1 of the Clifton Corridor 100% from MoreMarta revenue (+ assumed federal match). It does not "expect Dekalb or some other source" to pay for any part of phase 1.
Somehow I glossed over this part and didn't respond before, but a response is important. You are technically correct. However, the expectation that Dekalb pay for all of Phase 2 as well as a chunk of Phase 1 is pretty ridiculous. The City of Atlanta would currently spend ~$500MM in local funds plus an assumed federal match of $393MM for the entire Clifton Corridor. That includes capital costs and operations over the entire projection period. Other sources would be paying something like $1.5-2 billion. That's under the proposal that Beltline Rail Now wants to cut back on. In order to build the entire 22-mile Beltline Loop, the More MARTA local contribution would have to be cut to ~$280MM, including federal match. That's also assuming no LRT on Campbellton Road. That means you're asking Dekalb to cover something along the lines of $1.3-1.7 billion, and Atlanta to cover just $280MM (both inclusive of federal match).
Dekalb will just move right on past the Clifton Corridor like you want Atlanta to do. The people will even make the exact same arguments you are: "That's a regional project not a Dekalb project", "It benefits Atlanta, so they need to pay their fair share", etc.
The city voted to tax itself for 40 years to fund $11 billion in projects out of a $2.5 billion budget. There are numerous great projects that have to be trimmed unless more money is identified.
For some historical perspective on the funds for the Beltline: when it was originally approved by Mayor Franklin and the City Council in 2005, the only source of local funds for the entire project, including parks, trails, and transit, was supposed to be the TADs. All other funds, again, to complete the entire project, were to come from philanthropic and federal sources. Even as recently as 2013, the Beltline was saying it only needed $891 million from "unidentified sources" to complete its entire budget for all capital and operating costs, including the trails, the parks, and the rail. It's now asking for ~$1.5 billion from More MARTA (including an assumed federal match) in order to build and operate the full 22-mile loop. Why does the goalpost keep moving so dramatically for outside funds wrt the Beltline?
Cost of steel and other things rise as construction is booming. Take it with a grain of salt, but some calculations by BRN shows the total for rail along the 22 mile loop would $1.011B.
Quote:
To be completely clear: I support the Beltline, but the NW rail would be extremely expensive and cannot even be built right now not matter how much money is available for it. I think the Campbellton Road LRT should be scrapped and all of that money moved to Beltline to build out the SE rail and whatever else can be done with the leftover money. Armour Infill Station likely makes sense as part of that.
City of Atlanta currently owns 80% of the full loop, the NW corridor was never envisioned to be abandoned by the railroad, but instead LRT could operate in an easement next to the freight traffic (with an FTA-approved barrier, similar to MARTA's current at-grade rail lines.) Campbellton Rd can have world-class BRT for under $200M and the funds from LRT can be used on the Southside BeltLine, which has similar totals of car ownership and avg income of census blocks along Campbellton Rd (true equity.)
Cost of steel and other things rise as construction is booming. Take it with a grain of salt, but some calculations by BRN shows the total for rail along the 22 mile loop would $1.011B.
That's $1.011B in capital expenses. It would cost another $490MM to operate the thing for 40 years. It's a very expensive loop to operate. I keep trying to do some version of an apples-to-apples but it's tough to get all the numbers right and have them in a fair context. By that I mean I try to at least compare local only to local only, local + federal to local + federal, and capital only to capital only. But again, it's tough to pick a single metric and stick to it because different people are talking about different numbers, and context does affect which metric makes more sense for a specific discussion.
For the full apples-to-apples comparison with the current More MARTA proposal for Clifton Corridor:
Local capital: $393MM
Federal capital: $393MM
Total capital: $786MM
O&M: $110.6MM
Total local: $503.6MM
I agree with BRN that pulling the Campbellton LRT is the right call. That money would be better used for the Beltline NE-SE connector and Beltline SE LRT lines. That gives a double-S (like §, not the German) concept instead of the S. It adds the areas of the Beltline that will be developed the earliest.
The difference is that BRN wants to also do the Beltline NW and NW-SW connector. The totals for those two are:
Local capital: $204MM
Federal capital: $204MM
Total capital: $408MM
O&M: $208.6MM
Total local: $412.6MM
So BRN is advocating for 8 miles of the NW + NW-SW connector Beltline for $412.6MM in local funds vs. 4 miles of the Clifton Corridor (assuming Dekalb pays for all of Phase 2 as is expected) for $503.6MM in local funds. That 4 miles of the Clifton Corridor gets the city's residents and employers access to the entire 8+ mile Clifton Corridor, the rest of which would be funded by someone else. The last numbers I saw had the Clifton Corridor's estimated ridership at nearly double the estimated ridership for the entire 22-mile Beltline loop. To me, the Clifton Corridor provides a much better project for the city's money than that last 1/3 of the Beltline because it leverages significant investment from somebody else.
I think all of this energy would be better spent pushing for more funding sources rather than fighting over how much of a tiny pie each project gets. Other funding sources that should be pursue: Philanthropic donations to ABI or related entity (both from individuals and from corporations) for parks, trail sections, land, operations, etc. to allow ABI to put a little bit of its budget toward transit, state funds, other potential local tax revenue streams, and, yes, private funds that might help take away some of the public costs of the Clifton Corridor. By the time the NW Beltline is in a more realistic position to move forward in 10-15 years, hopefully enough funds can be identified to finish the loop.
Last edited by autolycus25; 08-30-2018 at 01:23 PM..
Reason: typos, words
The city voted to tax itself for 40 years to fund $11 billion in projects out of a $2.5 billion budget. There are numerous great projects that have to be trimmed unless more money is identified.
For some historical perspective on the funds for the Beltline: when it was originally approved by Mayor Franklin and the City Council in 2005, the only source of local funds for the entire project, including parks, trails, and transit, was supposed to be the TADs. All other funds, again, to complete the entire project, were to come from philanthropic and federal sources. Even as recently as 2013, the Beltline was saying it only needed $891 million from "unidentified sources" to complete its entire budget for all capital and operating costs, including the trails, the parks, and the rail. It's now asking for ~$1.5 billion from More MARTA (including an assumed federal match) in order to build and operate the full 22-mile loop. Why does the goalpost keep moving so dramatically for outside funds wrt the Beltline?
To be completely clear: I support the Beltline, but the NW rail would be extremely expensive and cannot even be built right now not matter how much money is available for it. I think the Campbellton Road LRT should be scrapped and all of that money moved to Beltline to build out the SE rail and whatever else can be done with the leftover money. Armour Infill Station likely makes sense as part of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by autolycus25
That's $1.011B in capital expenses. It would cost another $490MM to operate the thing for 40 years. It's a very expensive loop to operate. I keep trying to do some version of an apples-to-apples but it's tough to get all the numbers right and have them in a fair context. By that I mean I try to at least compare local only to local only, local + federal to local + federal, and capital only to capital only. But again, it's tough to pick a single metric and stick to it because different people are talking about different numbers, and context does affect which metric makes more sense for a specific discussion.
For the full apples-to-apples comparison with the current More MARTA proposal for Clifton Corridor:
Local capital: $393MM
Federal capital: $393MM
Total capital: $786MM
O&M: $110.6MM
Total local: $503.6MM
I agree with BRN that pulling the Campbellton LRT is the right call. That money would be better used for the Beltline NE-SE connector and Beltline SE LRT lines. That gives a double-S (like §, not the German) concept instead of the S. It adds the areas of the Beltline that will be developed the earliest.
The difference is that BRN wants to also do the Beltline NW and NW-SW connector. The totals for those two are:
Local capital: $204MM
Federal capital: $204MM
Total capital: $408MM
O&M: $208.6MM
Total local: $412.6MM
So BRN is advocating for 8 miles of the NW + NW-SW connector Beltline for $412.6MM in local funds vs. 4 miles of the Clifton Corridor (assuming Dekalb pays for all of Phase 2 as is expected) for $503.6MM in local funds. That 4 miles of the Clifton Corridor gets the city's residents and employers access to the entire 8+ mile Clifton Corridor, the rest of which would be funded by someone else. The last numbers I saw had the Clifton Corridor's estimated ridership at nearly double the estimated ridership for the entire 22-mile Beltline loop. To me, the Clifton Corridor provides a much better project for the city's money than that last 1/3 of the Beltline because it leverages significant investment from somebody else.
I think all of this energy would be better spent pushing for more funding sources rather than fighting over how much of a tiny pie each project gets. Other funding sources that should be pursue: Philanthropic donations to ABI or related entity (both from individuals and from corporations) for parks, trail sections, land, operations, etc. to allow ABI to put a little bit of its budget toward transit, state funds, other potential local tax revenue streams, and, yes, private funds that might help take away some of the public costs of the Clifton Corridor. By the time the NW Beltline is in a more realistic position to move forward in 10-15 years, hopefully enough funds can be identified to finish the loop.
I agree that NW BeltLine corridor is not a priority. Southside BeltLine should be a priority over Campbellton LRT.
I agree that NW BeltLine corridor is not a priority. Southside BeltLine should be a priority over Campbellton LRT.
Yeah, and I realized you were probably responding to my question about why the goalposts keep moving. But I had already written that lengthy response, so I figured I might as well hit send anyway, for others who might find the numbers interesting.
I'm just wondering how is it that people are deciding who should be privy to which service first.
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