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On a side note, I also frequently hear, "a black person acting white." What does acting white mean? And for AA people, is that considered offensive? Because I'm assuming most people use that term when an AA is talking with proper english, and dresses more conservative or what not.
And to anadyr21, I think I was quite naive to think students of historical Black colleges did not have much interaction with students of other races. I guess I watched "ATL" and "Stomp the Yard" too many times :S. It is good to know that non-AA are attending the schools and black people from all different countries attend as well since the cultures will be very different.
In my opinion, there are two underlying factors. One is as you've stated, the constant focus on the past.
Sorry. We focus on our past to know from where we came and to be thankful for what we have. Remembering our history has nothing to do with blaming or hating white people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J2rescue
But perhaps more detrimental is government social policies of the past that have destroyed the AA family.
You mean the social policies of splitting apart families by selling away their children? Or the social policies of barring black families from living where they wished? Or the social policies that led to the emasculation of black men? Yes things are way, way better, but the resulting patterns are a vicious cycle of overcome. What we're left with these days is the mess to clean up after centuries of oppression.
On a side note, I also frequently hear, "a black person acting white." What does acting white mean? And for AA people, is that considered offensive? Because I'm assuming most people use that term when an AA is talking with proper english, and dresses more conservative or what not.
And to anadyr21, I think I was quite naive to think students of historical Black colleges did not have much interaction with students of other races. I guess I watched "ATL" and "Stomp the Yard" too many times :S. It is good to know that non-AA are attending the schools and black people from all different countries attend as well since the cultures will be very different.
OK. Where are you from and when did you move to the US?
I recently moved from out of country to Atlanta and had a few interesting observations and wanted to get everyone's input on the issue.
***
I am in no ways trying to insult a certain racial group but rather wanted to hear people's opinion. I am posting my opinion and you may disagree, please post your take on the issue so maybe I will change my own thoughts on the issue. I think the internet is a great avenue because people are more likely to say what they really feel instead of worrying about how others will perceive them. With that said, please do not use this discussion for any hate comments.
And on a side note, English is not my first language so please do not bash my literary skills. I have been working very hard to improve my English so please be understanding. Thank you!
***
As I have lived in Atlanta for just under a year, I reflected back on my time here and wondered about racial issues that exist in "South". Although there are plenty of well-off African-American (AA) families and individuals, I find it difficult to get rid of AA stereotypes, mainly because of the overexposure to certain types of AA that crowd around Five-Points Station, which is where I regularly travel. I am extremely disturbed when a homeless person (which the vast majority are AA in the Five-Points area) asks you for "change for food" and reject an offer when I hand them an apple/granola bar/etc. They keep trying to push you for "some change" and swear that it is for food.
During other times, like Black History Month, I constantly hear talks about how AA use to be treated as slaves and how prejudice still exists (GSU students, conversations on MARTA, etc...). I hear a lot of complaints and excuses to why AA aren't as successful (generally) as their Caucasian counterparts in the US. My personal take is that too many AA are still dwelling on the past and are not doing enough to make change for themselves (again this is generally - NOT ALL). Other racial groups have had to deal with slavery and punishment as well (Jewish by Germans, Koreans by Japanese, etc) but are much further along in getting over it than AA. I feel like too many AA use this as an excuse as to why they are not successful. If more time was spent on bettering yourself, than complaining, I feel like the issue would be much smaller.
I also disagree with the existance of historical Black colleges. Isn't this what we are trying to move away from? Shouldn't the youth of today have greater exposure to students of diverse backgrounds? I believe university is a time where the most self-growth occurs, and think that these historical Black colleges hurt more than they benefit. Would an all White college be allowed to exist? I don't think so and so I don't understand this double standard. What do you think? Have any of you attended these schools that can comment on this?
I've briefly discussed three different areas that I thought were quite interesting. I could go on but I don't feel like typing much more . I do want to add one more thing. Because of my encounters here in Atlanta, I have developed my own stereotypes for certain AA who dress in that hip-hop/ghetto type way. I know this is wrong but I find it difficult not too because of the overexposure to these types of AA around Five-Points. My perception completely changes when I see an AA in business attire. Does anyone else have this problem? I am trying not to have stereotypes, but I find it difficult...
Lastly, I think change needs to occur by successful AA leaders. If someone other than an AA tries to make change, they will be labelled as a "racist" when they bring up these issues. Do you not agree?
Hmmm....
Why am I not surprised?..lol..I have lived all over the world and I hear ALOT of foreigners with the same view. You are entitled to that view. I will say this, there is absolutely nothing wrong with HBCU's (and honestly I would never attend one even though I am an AA female) and people always have the option of going to a diverse institution. To have an HBCU doesnt mean we're trying to limit AA's options in post secondary education. To even imply that is absurd, when you have the option of going to some where else. You can't form an opinion based on a particular "type" of AA u see at 5 points. If you branch out and go to some other areas, you will see other AA's that are extremely different from what your use to seeing. It's all about exposure...so expose yourself to something different.....
I'm not sure if you are a troll, but this board is full of race debate topics that are sure to be rehashed over time. I also find it strange that you would pose this question on a message board, when you had the opportunity to discuss openly when you conducted your research. You questions are typical simplistic when regarding the AA's.
So I will give you a simplistic answer. What part of history have a mass groups been transported thousands of miles away from home, enslaved for 300 years, segregated and humilated for 70 years, and turned all of this around in a matter of 45 years?
The only comment I have to the original post is that the OP characterizes this as an issue of race relations in the South. With the exception of traditionally black colleges, whatever you observed in Atlanta that drove you to your conclusions you probably would have seen in just about any Northern city too. Neither Cleveland, Boston nor Buffalo have exactly solved the race issue either. Race relations and parallel issues of class, segregation, and stereotypes are still a nationwide issue.
south-to-west: I am from Brazil and came to the US 5 years ago. And I understand it is great to study history and know where you came from, but when does it come to the point where you don't blame the past for what some are experiencing today? My main issue comes when some AA's complain that they can't get a job because of people oppressing them or because they are black. I have literally heard this many times. Now I know some racism still exists, but we are in a different world. Its not perfect but if you work hard, good things can happen. When you sit and complain, nothing happens. That was my issue.
jeffreda30238: I have traveled to many places around the world and have had many encounters with black people. But my perception of black people from other areas has been different. This viewpoint is mainly targeted to many AA's in the city of Atlanta. Again, I have encounters with many AA who do not fit this description. But if we are talking a numbers game, it seems (although it may not be true) that the majority do fit the description.
onemanarmy: I did not ask people directly because I did not know how they would respond. I am not trying to be offensive, although I understand it can still be offensive. Like I said in my original post, the internet was a good avenue to ask because I felt like I could be honest without dealing with the negative repercussions personally. You can call me a coward if you like but racial discussions are a hot topic (especially in the South).
First of all, the situation of blacks in the United States is vastly different than the other people groups you mentioned who at one time were oppressed and have now overcome. Why? Because the other people groups were not help as PROPERTY, meaning they were not classified as sub-human. There is a vast difference between "servants" and "slaves".
In South Africa blacks served as servants to the white man, at the end of a work day, they would often go home to their families. The whites came to South Africa, the blacks were not captured and dragged away from their homeland and people, sold away from the families they formed while in captivity, beaten like an animal, etc.
As recently as 1965, a man by the name of John Lewis, took a beating which left his skull split open just to give blacks the right to vote. John Lewis is now a congressman for an Atlanta congressional district. The history of AA people getting the right to vote, meaning being treated by our laws as "equal" is, historically speaking, very new.
AA are living with the legacy of deeply ingrained perceptions, both their own and those of non-blacks, which have proven to be an anchor.
It's so bleeping easy for those of us, myself included in the past, to say "just get over it", but the reality is the institutional racism of this society wears on an individual day in and day out. I have shared my life with a black man for the past 19 years, and seeing the reality of what he has to overcome .... At times - it's a lot. *sigh*
My husband is not one to jump in and cry foul at the slightest implication of racism... at times I have pointed out to my husband that the resistance he is working to overcome in his place of employment may be more than the normal amount of resistance any individual may be expected to face - that it's in fact racially motivated resistance. Maybe because I am white I can sometimes more clearly see that the opposition he is facing is not "normal" opposition?
More often than not, we are left wondering whether or not a rejection we got was racially motivated. There is nothing you can do but move on, and that's what we do, but the obstacles and hurdles are there, and they are real.
I have watched a white man, my dad, try to get ahead in this world, and I have watch a black man, my husband, try to get ahead in this world. Don't think for a minute it's an even playing ground out there, because it is not. Any black man who is "successful" has worked 2-3 times as hard to get where he's at versus any white man who has seemingly had the same row to hoe. That's the reality.
I might add, we have never been financially well off as a family, many years we have barely made ends meet. We are not living in poverty, but we are not living far above poverty either. When we lived in a well-to-do suburb, we felt the heat... but I think some of the heat was more so class- ism than racism.
I personally think it's more difficult to overcome the black stereotypes when you are not financially well off.... AAs who have attained educational and career success can often, but not always, step above the fray. But it's not so easy to do when you are fighting the double curse of racism and class-ism.
Historically black colleges and universities serve a purpose in that they help students more deeply understand and appreciate the skin they were born with. Psychologically, they are a place of healing and renewed hope, and traditionally grads of the private HSCU have gone onto be leaders of not only the AA community, but also the nation as a whole. The graduation rates and professional degree obtaining rates of graduates of black colleges and universities speaks well of the success of these institutions.
The election of Barack Obama tells everyone this nation has made great strides in regards to race relations, but realities you observe daily at the Five Points station speak to how far we have yet to go as a nation.
When you refer to the ghetto culture, you are talking about a cultural of "generational poverty" ... when people are born into generational poverty and have no role models to escape generational poverty, they repeat the process. Generational poverty individuals act/react in a "survivor mode" much of the time.
Those of us who grew up in working/middle class families, myself and my husband included, need to be educated about the realities of "generational poverty". Understanding the "culture of poverty" has helped both my husband and myself understand what we encountered when we moved from a suburb to the east side of St.Paul. I have become good friends with a woman who grew up in the projects of Chicago. She often thinks her experiences and life perspective are the "black experience". My husband says "no, that is not what I think or how I was taught." The difference, I think, is that my husband grew up in a two-parent family where his dad held a union job, his parents owned their home, his uncle is a lawyer, his cousin was a doctor before his tragic death, his brother attended the Naval Academy, etc...
My husband grew up in a different world than my friend whose mother has four children w/ four different dads, who does not have any immediate or extended family members who are actually married [although they may be in a relationship which has spanned decades and has produced several children] and where none of her immediate or extended family members have graduated from college [often not even high school[ and where none of her immediate or extended family members are home owners. My friend, in fact, thinks everyone who is a home owner is "rich"!
My husband and my friend have a lot in common, because they are both black and they both grew up in black homes, they do have similar backgrounds in some areas.... bu a lot of the morals, values, perceptions, etc are vastly different. I have learned not to judge [or at least I try not to judge] but rather to understand that she is operating out of a different mindset.
I might add, not everything about my friend's culture/mindset is "bad", she has many desirable and admirable qualities. I have learned much from her. We often say we are as different as two people can be, but somehow we have formed a strong bond.
++++++++++
Ripped from the work of Dr. Ruby Payne, here is a little bit of education on the differences between generational poverty, middle class and wealthy class:
Generational vs. Situational Poverty
There are generally five reasons for poverty
Educational attainment of adult
The structure of the family
Immigration
Language issues
Addiction issues of adults
Dr. Payne makes a clear distinction between Generational and Situational Poverty. Generational poverty is defined as two or more generations living in poverty. People in generational poverty exhibit certain ingrained patterns of behavior. These patterns are the result of having experienced the effects of poverty over time. The behaviors are part of their culture. For this reason, even though these individuals tend to have a much lower level of educational attainment, they do tend to have better coping and life skills than those in situational poverty.
http://www.ext.wvu.edu/cyfar/rut/_themes/poetic/poehorsd.gif (broken link) "Life is lived in common,
but not in community."
-- Michael Harrington
http://www.ext.wvu.edu/cyfar/rut/_themes/poetic/poehorsd.gif (broken link)
Situational poverty is the result of a change in circumstances – loss of a job, divorce, death of a spouse, etc. With situational poverty, the individual keeps the values and behaviors of the socioeconomic class from which they have come. These individuals often have more resources and are better connected with individuals who can provide assistance. They often have a higher level of education and therefore are more employable than those in generational poverty. But one of the greatest advantages is that these individuals know and understand the hidden rules of the middle class.
What Are Hidden Rules?
Hidden rules are the unspoken cues that dictate behavior. But these hidden rules apply to much more than just behaviors and actions. They are part of the culture of each socioeconomic class. These hidden rules are the basis for how individuals make decisions. For example, in the middle class, the driving forces for decision-making are work and achievement. In the wealthy class, decisions are based upon social, financial, and political connections. In generational poverty, survival, relationships, and entertainment are the forces that determine decisions. Below are some of the more common hidden rules. Once again, these hidden rules are based upon patterns of behaviors. There are exceptions to every pattern.
http://www.ext.wvu.edu/cyfar/rut/_themes/poetic/poehorsd.gif (broken link) "Through thick and thin,
boom and bust, we tenaciously
hold on to the belief that we
are fundamentally a classless society.”
-- Ellen Goodman
http://www.ext.wvu.edu/cyfar/rut/_themes/poetic/poehorsd.gif (broken link)
Food – Quantity vs. quality
Wealthy – The presentation of the food, making it aesthetically appealing, is what is important
Middle Class – The quality of the food is what is important
Generational Poverty – It is about quantity; having enough is what matters Fighting – How conflicts are resolved
Wealthy – Done through social exclusion and lawyers
Middle Class – Done verbally; issues are discussed
Generational Poverty – Done physically with fists
and bodies The World – How individuals see themselves in the world
Wealthy – Part of the international / global world
Middle Class – National; staying within the continent
Generational Poverty – Local; rarely leaving the state or even the county Time – How it is viewed and perceived
Wealthy – Traditions and past history are what is important
Middle Class – The future is what matters; planning and preparing
Generational Poverty – It is about the present – living in the moment and meeting immediate needs Destiny – Fate vs. choices
Wealthy – “Noblesse oblige”; the wealthy are bound by obligations that determine their destiny
Middle Class – Believe in choices; can change the future with well-made decisions
Generational Poverty – Believe in fate; not much can be done to mitigate chance Possessions – What is important to own
Wealthy – One-of-a-kind objects, legacies, and pedigrees
Middle Class – Material items (cars, electronic gadgets, clothes, etc.)
Generational Poverty – People and relationships Love and Acceptance – What determines love and acceptance
Wealthy – Whether the individual is connected and has social standing
Middle Class –Achievements and success
Generational Poverty –Whether the individual is liked
So Now What?
Because most of society is based upon the values of middle class (i.e., business transactions, school environments, public policies, etc.), it is not enough to simply be aware of the hidden rules. Awareness alone will not positively affect programming. To improve the efforts of serving under served populations, the hidden rules must be taught directly to those individuals who are attempting to leave poverty. For example, if an individual in generational poverty does not know that middle class individuals place high priority on work and achievement, this must be taught. What may be an appropriate reaction at home or in their community (like fighting) may not be appropriate at school or 4-H camp. If an individual is trying to move out of poverty, it is imperative for him or her to have a clear understanding of the middle class hidden rules in order to make a successful transition.
References
Payne, Ruby K. (1998). A Framework for Understanding Poverty. Highlands, TX: RFT Publishing Company.
Payne, Ruby K. (1999). Bridges Out of Poverty: Strategies for Professionals and Communities. Highlands, TX: RFT Publishing Company.
south-to-west: I am from Brazil and came to the US 5 years ago. And I understand it is great to study history and know where you came from, but when does it come to the point where you don't blame the past for what some are experiencing today? My main issue comes when some AA's complain that they can't get a job because of people oppressing them or because they are black. I have literally heard this many times. Now I know some racism still exists, but we are in a different world. Its not perfect but if you work hard, good things can happen. When you sit and complain, nothing happens. That was my issue.
Well if you're from Brazil, then you should know the African American experience well. You should also be very familiar with the legacy of slavery and discrimination. Black Brazilians are basically in the same boat and actually are a lot worse off than black Americans. There is a rapidly growing and affluent black middle and upper class here in the US, while in Brazil most blacks are confined to favelas. There are also very few black faces in local, state, and federal government in Brazil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by confusedatl
But if we are talking a numbers game, it seems (although it may not be true) that the majority do fit the description.
See? It's that type of statement that angers a lot of people. You're making a gross generalization of an entire segment of society. Most blacks that I know (and I'm black, mind you) do not fit that description.
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. I do want to add one more thing. Because of my encounters here in Atlanta, I have developed my own stereotypes for certain AA who dress in that hip-hop/ghetto type way. I know this is wrong but I find it difficult not too because of the overexposure to these types of AA around Five-Points. My perception completely changes when I see an AA in business attire. Does anyone else have this problem? I am trying not to have stereotypes, but I find it difficult...
Historical Realities + Class-ism
