Why isn't there a congestion tax? (Austin: law, safe, automobile)

[EVAunit1981]

I think some people on both sides have made some good points.

I'm against new taxes, because I think we're taxed enough already but I'm also against paying taxes for services you don't use or don't want. You shouldn't have to subsidize other people's behaviors if you don't want to. Ideally we would only pay for the stuff we use or feel like voluntarily contributing to but that's another topic.

Originally Posted by veloman777

You have some logic, but I can tell you the reason why bicycles don't need a license or insurance, like automobiles and motorcycles. The true reason. - It's because a car and motorcycle can travel at high rates of speed and weigh 15 to 100x as much as a bicycle. So it's about relative responsibility. A car or motorcycle driver can cause a lot more damage than a bicycle. YES, a bicycle can cause an accident, but it's just not the same risk.

The flat out bottom line is that a car and motorcycle must have more responsibility. That doesn't exempt the cyclist, but in relation, they are orders of magnitude different.

There is one respect in which bicycles are more like motorcycles: if you're riding a motorcycle and crash you probably won't hurt anyone else. Property damage? Maybe. But when it's a case of car vs. motorcycle (or car vs. bicycle) the car always wins. So riskwise it seems that bicycles are pretty similar to motorcycles. Though not the same since bicycles are slower.

I kind of agree with what you are saying but I don't think comparing bicycles to motorcycles helps your argument. Most people go through the MSF course before they get their MC license and no one is really upset with that.

[scm53]

A viewpoint from someone who has the experience to know.

Although I rode on the road for years and have completed over a dozen “centuries”, I never fully settled in with the roadie mentality. Many road riders are great pals and fun people. Some of them, however, are passive-aggressive whiners who are forever complaining about everything from the weather to the use of Biopace chainrings in a paceline, to name just two things I heard bitched about continually when I did winter training rides in the Eighties with a Biopace-equipped Cannondale SR500. BMX and mountain bikers tend to be pretty regular guys, with high pain tolerances and a certain joie de vivre, but the hardcore roadies are often really nasty, picky, bitchy little people.

Maybe not as cut and dried an argument as it seems?

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by scm53

A viewpoint from someone who has the experience to know.



Maybe not as cut and dried an argument as it seems?

The person who wrote that article is deliberately advocating murder.

"Any motorist who finds himself in this kind of situation should probably make sure there’s only side of the story left to tell."

[scm53]

Originally Posted by Novacek

The person who wrote that article is deliberately advocating murder.

"Any motorist who finds himself in this kind of situation should probably make sure there’s only side of the story left to tell."

Nice out of context quote. Meaningless without the previous two paragraphs. Was also a little tongue in cheek, which becomes clearer when it is - you know - in context.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by scm53

Nice out of context quote. Meaningless without the previous two paragraphs. Was also a little tongue in cheek, which becomes clearer when it is - you know - in context.

I didn't take it as tongue in cheek. The guy sounds like an a-hole, he was proudly describing "throwing elbows" to knock down fellow riders while doing his cycling.

[scm53]

Originally Posted by Novacek

I didn't take it as tongue in cheek. The guy sounds like an a-hole, he was proudly describing "throwing elbows" to knock down fellow riders while doing his cycling.

I had to read the article three times to find that - guess if you are hell bent on discrediting someone, tongue in cheek comments leap off the page at you.

What I found fascinating in this article, and the comments that followed, was the passive aggressive, entitled road cyclist was well recognized (and disdained) even by those in the cycling community. That the road cyclist who insists upon strict adherence by drivers, while justifying disobedience of traffic laws such as stop signs because they can't be troubled by their clipless pedals or toe clips, is as much the rule as the exception, according again, to the cycling community - not just Mr. Baruth, but by many cyclist commenters.

Finally, this:

I’ve been struck by cars and trucks five times during my career, including one particularly nasty leg-and-neck-breaker of a hit in 1988, so I understand why cyclists are defensive and hypersensitive when it comes to interacting with cars, but for every genuinely dangerous or offensive action on the part of a motorist, I saw ten cases of overreaction and deliberate trouble-seeking by roadies. The majority of the trouble I saw between drivers and riders was in large part actively sought-out by the riders. I realize that’s not a terribly PC thing to say in the era of Critical Mass, but it’s true in my personal and extensive experience.

Quite flies in the face of the innocent road cyclist so often presented.

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by scm53

I had to read the article three times to find that - guess if you are hell bent on discrediting someone, tongue in cheek comments leap off the page at you.

I think this guy does a pretty good job at discrediting himself. He's aggressive, violent, and full of conspiracy theories.

Originally Posted by scm53

What I found fascinating in this article, and the comments that followed, was the passive aggressive, entitled road cyclist was well recognized (and disdained) even by those in the cycling community.

"cycling community"? This story is posted on a _car_ website. The majority of the comments on the article are from "car guys".

Originally Posted by scm53

That the road cyclist who insists upon strict adherence by drivers, while justifying disobedience of traffic laws such as stop signs because they can't be troubled by their clipless pedals or toe clips, is as much the rule as the exception, according again, to the cycling community -

_Again_ , most of those comments are the _CAR_ community, not the cycling community.

[veloman777]

Quit with the generalizing. You can't accurately do it.

I know of and have ridden with many roadies who are completely respectful and safe riders. I myself am one.

The reason motorcyclists must take a MSF course and earn a license is because traveling 30-75mph is a lot different and requires a lot more skill than slower speeds on a bike that weighs 1/15th of what a motorcycle weighs.

I'm not completely against taking a license test or simular to ride a bicycle. I know some people would benefit from it. But the time and money wouldn't justify the gains made. You'll always have some kid on a bike riding stupid, or a homeless guy going the wrong way up the street.

It's really quite silly that we are still arguing about why bicycles don't have licenses and why they don't have to have the same amount of responsibility as a 3000lb car, 400lb motorcycle that is allowed to go 70mph down the highway.

[scm53]

Originally Posted by Novacek

_Again_ , most of those comments are the _CAR_ community, not the cycling community.

As some of you know, your humble author competed in various cycling disciplines for twenty years, including a decade as a professional BMX racer. Although I rode on the road for years and have completed over a dozen “centuries”, I never fully settled in with the roadie mentality

.

I raced MTB for a while, and still like to keep an ear in the scene, and roadies always seemed like a completely different species. Precociousness was a common theme.

I ride MTB mostly, but have been known to race road as well and I’ve had PLENTY of occasions where drivers go off unprovoked. Yes, some roadies are dicks, ...

First, I regularly commute by bicycle so I log a lot of miles and have little patience for roadies/racer wannabes who think they own the road.

When I was younger and in better shape, I’ve ridden Martha’s vineyard, numerous rail trails, and even got around DC for a bit on a bicycle. But why in the hell these pricks think they’re entitled to 45mph two lane country roads, with no shoulders, are beyond me

I’m an occasional recreational cyclist (roadie). I think bikes and cycling are great. Good exercise, better for the environment, a way to get out and enjoy life, etc. And I’m all for motorist respecting cyclists, and cyclists having vehicular rights. Having said all that, here in the SF Bay Area, there seems to be a lot of tension between cyclists and motorists…and about 90% of it seems to come from cyclists who have a chip on their shoulder. Especially in SF, the number of traffic violations I see cyclists routinely commit just boggles the mind. You don’t see motorists routinely run red lights and stop signs, go the wrong way down one way streets, drive on sidewalks, etc.

As a formerly active cyclist and higher-end bike shop employee (clarification: the shop was high end, I as an employee was not), I’m well acquainted with the roadie mentality. A lot of them do make a point of taking up as much road as possible,

I agree with JB, most of the road bicyclists I know are total d**ks, and my dad is a hardcore roadie so I meet a lot of them. My dad is not like that but even he will tell you he is the exception.

I’ve been hit by three cars and have been run off the road deliberately a few times as well so drivers are hardly blameless. Still, I think that when guys like Jack and myself, who literally have scars to prove that we’re dedicated riders, express criticism of aspects of bikie culture, it says something.

At least as often as I’ve nearly been hit, I’ve seen bicyclists acting like complete d-bags. Riding indignantly 3-wide, not yielding, not sharing. And it pisses me off, because their behavior feeds into the rage of the non-bicyclist driver who loses patience for all bicyclists.

Didn't spend much time actually reading the comments from cyclists, did you?

[Novacek]

Originally Posted by scm53

.




Didn't spend much time actually reading the comments from cyclists, did you?

So in a story with 100 or so replies, you pulled out the 10 or so from "cyclists", including the one from the guy who doesn't ride(his dad does) and the guy who rode "in his younger days" (20 years ago?) as representative of "the cycling community".

And of the ones you did pull out, most don't even support your assertion:

>>I ride MTB mostly, but have been known to race road as well and I’ve had PLENTY of occasions where drivers go off unprovoked. Yes, some roadies are dicks, ...
Stories of unprovoked assualts.

>>I raced MTB for a while, and still like to keep an ear in the scene, and roadies always seemed like a completely different species. Precociousness was a common theme.
Precociousness hardly being an excuse for assault or attempted murder.