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I am Australian and you don't speak for me. I don't care less about nuclear subs. I am very unhappy how the Australian government handling of it and stabbed the French deal and now the French government is suing the Australian government. No wonder the French government is very unhappy with Australia. If the Australian government didn't deceive the French government for so long, then maybe the nuclear subs would be a good thing.
BTW China walks over Hong Kong which was a British territory for a long time and Britain can't do much to stop it.
And to the extent that diesel boats are quieter still than nuclear powered boats (while running in electric mode), a potentially fatal flaw that they have is that they'll have to make a bunch of noise when they snorkel to recharge their batteries. Even the existence of air independent propulsion (AIP) diesel electric boats that don't have to snorkel puts countries using such boats at disadvantages over nuclear powered boats in some ways.
I'm not Australian, but I'm glad that your government didn't let the hurt feelings of the French prevent it from securing a deal to build more capable submarines in defense of the nation.
Just my two cents.
Last edited by prospectheightsresident; 02-17-2022 at 03:32 AM..
I'm sure the French are saying to themselves "With allies like the U.S. who needs enemies." On a serious note, I suspect Australia wanted nuclear submarines all along, but there was kind of an understanding between the great powers, that such nuclear technology wouldn't be shared (at least in the open). The U.S., Australia, and U.K. took advantage of the public sentiment against China to facilitate a deal. At the end of the day it does nothing but benefit defense industries. What really changes for China. The U.S. and Russia operate nuclear subs off their coast, so Australia possibility joining the fray doesn't change much. Secondly, by going through with the deal it also opens a potential can of worms for other nations. What's to stop such technology from being shared N. Korea, Pakistan, Iran, etc. Precedent has been established.
It is a messy situation. BTW the US only has interests and using Australia to protect their interests in the region. The UK like France are no longer be world class powers since it's mission in the Suez canal in 1956 failed due to the high opposition from USA and Soviet Union at that time.
Even if Australia went forward with the deal with France, it still would have strong military links with the USA. So the AUSUK pack is not new and it has been around for many years.
BTW the french sups were quieter and move into shadow water without easily being detected. Nuclear subs can't do that and are not as quiet. Yet Nuclear subs are built for endurance and can be under water for long periods of time, but diesel needs to go to the surface to recharge.
There is a downside with nuclear subs such as this example: During one war game in 2015, a Russian-built, Kilo-class diesel-powered submarine used by the Indian navy “sank†a US nuclear-powered sub – although the US navy has never acknowledged the sinking.https://www.theguardian.com/australi...itary-addition
What France has which the UK does not is it has its own independent nuclear missiles and delivery systems unlike that of the UK which has to ask USA for all of these plus UK no more produces the military hardware that it once did from its fighter jets to missiles it's dependent on other European power or the USA.
I've often heard this particular myth before, I think its something bandied about by people when they try to 'scoff' at the UK because of its close relationship with the US.
Another thing, it's quite rich for the French to throw a hissy fit over Australia making a national security decision that France decided itself to many decades ago. The French do not have any diesel-electric submarines and have decided to go all nuclear-powered. Instead, France builds submarines for other nations that it refuses to use itself.
So countries with or assembling nuclear submarines are: Australia / Brazil / China / France / India / Russia / United Kingdom / United States
An exclusive club, though it seems Brazil could find better use for the money. No real enemies in close proximity and rampant poverty issues. You can't stop weapons proliferation. Guess N. Korea is next.
I'm sure the French are saying to themselves "With allies like the U.S. who needs enemies." On a serious note, I suspect Australia wanted nuclear submarines all along, but there was kind of an understanding between the great powers, that such nuclear technology wouldn't be shared (at least in the open). The U.S., Australia, and U.K. took advantage of the public sentiment against China to facilitate a deal. At the end of the day it does *nothing but benefit defense industries. What really changes for China. The U.S. and Russia operate nuclear subs off their coast, so Australia possibility joining the fray doesn't change much. Secondly, *by going through with the deal it also opens a potential can of worms for other nations. What's to stop such technology from being shared N. Korea, Pakistan, Iran, etc. Precedent has been established.
I'm sure the French aren't that oblivious to reality. The difference between being outcompeted strategically and economically - and in light of their own problems fulfilling the deal in question - by a country with the same Western orientation and general goals on one hand, and the acts of an anti-Western adversary on the other, is rather stark.
Have you noticed France leaving NATO? Me, neither.
Have you noticed France and the United States still working closely together, as exemplified by joint French-U.S. exercises in Djibouti this year, with the exercise Orion wargames in France (again, U.S. troops will be joining in the party) in 2023? Me, too.
Have you noticed U.S. warships participating in the task force built around the French aircraft Carrier Charles de Gaulle, and French posts continuing to host U.S. guided-missile cruisers and carriers? Me, too.
The interests of France, of the United States, and of Australia largely overlap. The issue with the submarines doesn't change that, no matter how earnestly some people might fantasize otherwise.
I'm sure the French aren't that oblivious to reality. The difference between being outcompeted strategically and economically - and in light of their own problems fulfilling the deal in question - by a country with the same Western orientation and general goals on one hand, and the acts of an anti-Western adversary on the other, is rather stark.
Have you noticed France leaving NATO? Me, neither.
Have you noticed France and the United States still working closely together, as exemplified by joint French-U.S. exercises in Djibouti this year, with the exercise Orion wargames in France (again, U.S. troops will be joining in the party) in 2023? Me, too.
Have you noticed U.S. warships participating in the task force built around the French aircraft Carrier Charles de Gaulle, and French posts continuing to host U.S. guided-missile cruisers and carriers? Me, too.
The interests of France, of the United States, and of Australia largely overlap. The issue with the submarines doesn't change that, no matter how earnestly some people might fantasize otherwise.
I'm not so sure anymore. The interest of France appears to be a divergent path from the Anglo countries. This started during the Iraq invasion and appeared to be accelerating in recent years. Also, France at one point left NATO. They even closed all U.S. military bases in their country. While it reentered the alliance, you can't say it operates on the same terms at other member states. France wants to take the Central role in providing European security. This will inevitably put it into clash with the U.S.
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