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And it's a shame because they have a decent platform and racing pedigree upon which to build. Plus, the Cobalt and Ion didn't have the Euro chops the VXR has (and in this segment that's kind of important).Completely different vehicles. I sincerely doubt there will be much serious cross-shop between the RS and the Mustang - not any more than between, say, the Golf R and the Camaro today.You are going to be waiting for a while since they don't sell them in the U.S. and I would strongly advise against the CLA45 that we do get. That body style helps nobody.
Not interested in CLA45, it's more like a slammed Subaru Forester. Chevy has the new SS with 426HP, that's supposed to be a new M3 fighter. That's my point is that Chevy decided it's more profitable to shift up to muscle cars and sports sedan class than compact sports. I don't think Ford is losing money selling RS as they are designed and built in Europe, they simply made the RS DOT certified.
As good as the Ford ST and Fiesta STs are, I just don't see that many out there
Not interested in CLA45, it's more like a slammed Subaru Forester.
Man, are you confused (though some of it is hardly your fault, Merc and their naming schemes aren't helping)...
A45: Hatchback that, despite being interested in buying used, you will not be able to buy at all since it's not available in the U.S. CLA45: Four-door "coupe" with a hardly usable rear bench GLA45: that "slammed Forester" you're talking about (although I don't really see it - it doesn't look too dissimilar to the A45, just a bit more bloated)
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Chevy has the new SS with 426HP, that's supposed to be a new M3 fighter. That's my point is that Chevy decided it's more profitable to shift up to muscle cars and sports sedan class than compact sports. I don't think Ford is losing money selling RS as they are designed and built in Europe, they simply made the RS DOT certified.
Not quite. The RS was originally designed to be sellable in both U.S. and Europe. It's not like they just certified the Euro model to be available Stateside (there are notable differences between the models, as well, like the availability of one-piece shell seats in Europe vs. here). My point is, if Ford can figure out how to do it with the RS, ST and Mustang, GM can probably make it work with the Camaro and the VXR, but, obviously, it's not a small undertaking and they decided it wasn't worth it, but all I'm saying is that it's a shame. Competition is a good thing.
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As good as the Ford ST and Fiesta STs are, I just don't see that many out there
The Fiesta ST is probably the best car nobody is buying (although I do tend to see a fair number of them around the bigger metro areas), but then the Fiesta is generally not the most sought-after car in that segment, either (so, reverse halo effect). The Focus holds its own against the competitors quite nicely. Plus, neither has the enthusiast cachet or the long-term unobtanium status of the RS.
$36k listed with the dealer markups, you're looking at $40k out the door. Not including taxes. It's way too much $$ imo, bring it down to $34k then it's a STI or Evo beating deal. I'm sure 360HP is nice, both STI or EVO can be tuned to give you 360HP for $1500 in parts.
And both have even crappier interiors and choppy rides. Both are mechanically less complex (good and bad). From what I've read, the RS is NOT something you want to be tuning for more power. Too early to really say for sure but the complex drive train may not be able to handle much more power. North of 400 (crank) is also where the EVO (not sure about the STi) starts having a lot of drive train problems as well though. Difference being with the EVO while not necessarily cheap you can build them up. You may be able to in the RS as well, but that may mean stripping out the fancy AWD system for something simpler and more like what the EVO/STi/Golf R use. Doing so you'd lose a lot of the reason to get an RS over the others.
Honestly if I was in that market I wouldn't look at the STi/EVO at all. While $36k is a lot for an economy car (albeit hopped up), that criticism is even more fairly pointed at the STiEVO twins than the RS. Apparently the RS is a reasonable daily driver. STiEVOs pretty much had the worst interiors in their class when new, and they're not new. They ride hard. Depends what roads your taking. 580 over the Altamont pass is basically one continuous pothole. RS has adjustable suspension with basically all the reviews saying the firmer setting it's way too much for street use, which probably isn't all that stiffer than the STi/EVO ride like all the time. It really depends where you do most of your driving. If I was mostly in Livermore or somewhere with great roads, the STi/EVO wouldn't bug me at all. I'm mostly not though. I'm mostly driving far too much and a lot of it is in Oakland or going over 580 or Highway 4 which mostly have more potholes than road. More locally the roads are better. Of course, you can detour around 580 and add 30 minutes and take Pacheco Pass. Usually what I do now on the motorcycles anyway. If there's no traffic they're awesome. Usually you get stuck behind a Camry that goes 30 mph the whole way. On a motorcycle there's plenty of room to just pass them but in a car you're stuck.
For me it would come down to the Golf R, which is like the Lazy Boy hot hatch, and the RS. Sorry, but at or around $40k, I want some luxury as well. Golf wins there. It would come down to how much better the RS drives than the Golf. The ST (Fiesta and Focus, Fiesta too small as sometimes put clients in the back seat) while nowhere near the performance is a lot easier to accept the price but the Focus just isn't that nice of a car. Hopefully Mazda comes out with a new Speed3. Previously I went with a Mazda3 over a Golf as it was more fun to drive as well as VW reliability. Golf was nicer, Mazda3 was more fun. I think you'll have the same thing with the RS. If in that segment, that's really what I'd cross-shop.
Man, are you confused (though some of it is hardly your fault, Merc and their naming schemes aren't helping)...
A45: Hatchback that, despite being interested in buying used, you will not be able to buy at all since it's not available in the U.S. CLA45: Four-door "coupe" with a hardly usable rear bench GLA45: that "slammed Forester" you're talking about (although I don't really see it - it doesn't look too dissimilar to the A45, just a bit more bloated)
Not quite. The RS was originally designed to be sellable in both U.S. and Europe. It's not like they just certified the Euro model to be available Stateside (there are notable differences between the models, as well, like the availability of one-piece shell seats in Europe vs. here). My point is, if Ford can figure out how to do it with the RS, ST and Mustang, GM can probably make it work with the Camaro and the VXR, but, obviously, it's not a small undertaking and they decided it wasn't worth it, but all I'm saying is that it's a shame. Competition is a good thing.The Fiesta ST is probably the best car nobody is buying (although I do tend to see a fair number of them around the bigger metro areas), but then the Fiesta is generally not the most sought-after car in that segment, either (so, reverse halo effect). The Focus holds its own against the competitors quite nicely. Plus, neither has the enthusiast cachet or the long-term unobtanium status of the RS.
Also the Camaro is a reskinned Cadillac ATS. I imagine you could reskin it again and get a hatchback out of it. You'd have some problems with the intrusive rear suspension design that you do with the ATS though. Nobody cares on the Camaro as backseats and cargo room in Camaro/Mustang aren't really high priorities. Actually, while the ATS came first it might be more fair to say the ATS is a reskinned Camaro. The platform works much better in the Camaro than in the ATS. Like the hot hatch segment, sport sedans need to be practical. The ATS really suffers there. Take away practicality and CUE, add a V8 option and you've got a winner. Oh, and the price. I just don't get what justifies the ATS pricing. It's a Camaro in a rental tuxedo. Even BMW has nicer interiors than that. Awesome to drive but the Camaro is just as good. Less practical but not that much so. Pretty even steps in practicality from Camaro to ATS to everything the ATS is supposed to compete with.
And both have even crappier interiors and choppy rides. Both are mechanically less complex (good and bad). From what I've read, the RS is NOT something you want to be tuning for more power. Too early to really say for sure but the complex drive train may not be able to handle much more power. North of 400 (crank) is also where the EVO (not sure about the STi) starts having a lot of drive train problems as well though. Difference being with the EVO while not necessarily cheap you can build them up. You may be able to in the RS as well, but that may mean stripping out the fancy AWD system for something simpler and more like what the EVO/STi/Golf R use. Doing so you'd lose a lot of the reason to get an RS over the others.
That was sort of my prediction of the Ford Focus RS that it comes factory tuned near the limit of the provided hardware. Same thing Ford did with the ST tuning it near the max of it's potential. In order to gain any big performance gains it would require dumping a lot more money to get more power. As with most Fords today, reliance of driver assist to make the car fun to drive comes at a cost to the ease of modification. I'm not talking about upgrading the exhaust and intake that's not much of an upgrade.
Since I've owned the 04' STI and have sat in many EVOs, the newer STI have come a long way in terms of interior upgrades. The rides are choppy because they're expected to be that way with stiff suspension I purposely drive around speed bumps that can cause my coffee to spill. The main attraction to these cars are the ability to mod them with interchangeable parts from other models and generations. The STI I was gaining 30HP easily with just a ECU reflash. I upgraded the pipings to get 50-80HP and the car responds to mods very well compare to other cars.
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For me it would come down to the Golf R, which is like the Lazy Boy hot hatch, and the RS. Sorry, but at or around $40k, I want some luxury as well. Golf wins there. It would come down to how much better the RS drives than the Golf. The ST (Fiesta and Focus, Fiesta too small as sometimes put clients in the back seat) while nowhere near the performance is a lot easier to accept the price but the Focus just isn't that nice of a car. Hopefully Mazda comes out with a new Speed3. Previously I went with a Mazda3 over a Golf as it was more fun to drive as well as VW reliability. Golf was nicer, Mazda3 was more fun. I think you'll have the same thing with the RS. If in that segment, that's really what I'd cross-shop.
Well supposedly the upcoming Mazdaspeed 3 will be competitive against all of these while having more refinement. The Golf R is a good choice if someone wants a fast and comfortable ride without looking too boy racer like the others.
Man, are you confused (though some of it is hardly your fault, Merc and their naming schemes aren't helping)...
A45: Hatchback that, despite being interested in buying used, you will not be able to buy at all since it's not available in the U.S. CLA45: Four-door "coupe" with a hardly usable rear bench GLA45: that "slammed Forester" you're talking about (although I don't really see it - it doesn't look too dissimilar to the A45, just a bit more bloated)
Not quite. The RS was originally designed to be sellable in both U.S. and Europe. It's not like they just certified the Euro model to be available Stateside (there are notable differences between the models, as well, like the availability of one-piece shell seats in Europe vs. here). My point is, if Ford can figure out how to do it with the RS, ST and Mustang, GM can probably make it work with the Camaro and the VXR, but, obviously, it's not a small undertaking and they decided it wasn't worth it, but all I'm saying is that it's a shame. Competition is a good thing.The Fiesta ST is probably the best car nobody is buying (although I do tend to see a fair number of them around the bigger metro areas), but then the Fiesta is generally not the most sought-after car in that segment, either (so, reverse halo effect). The Focus holds its own against the competitors quite nicely. Plus, neither has the enthusiast cachet or the long-term unobtanium status of the RS.
That's a typo of mine, I have to admit Merc has the worst naming scheme for their cars. They did get the "C" right as all of the C300 are Cheaper M-Bs.
The Fiesta ST was one of those forbidden fruit that we never get here from Europe. People were speculating why we don't get an compact sport hatch and here's the reason. They don't sell.
Which is why VW would not give us the Polo GTI and Nissan never gave us the Pulsar GTI-R.
And both have even crappier interiors and choppy rides. Both are mechanically less complex (good and bad). From what I've read, the RS is NOT something you want to be tuning for more power. Too early to really say for sure but the complex drive train may not be able to handle much more power. North of 400 (crank) is also where the EVO (not sure about the STi) starts having a lot of drive train problems as well though. Difference being with the EVO while not necessarily cheap you can build them up. You may be able to in the RS as well, but that may mean stripping out the fancy AWD system for something simpler and more like what the EVO/STi/Golf R use. Doing so you'd lose a lot of the reason to get an RS over the others.
No, they don't - and they have very robust drivetrains. However, cars break and when dealing with that level of modification it is bound to happen with any car. But there is a very good reason why a bunch of 400, 500, 600 and even 1000+ hp Evos exist, and it isn't because it has tempermental damage prone drivetrain which is what you seem to be implying. Not the same with Subarus. Some of their engines can't even handle stock horsepower. Ring lands.
No, they don't - and they have very robust drivetrains. However, cars break and when dealing with that level of modification it is bound to happen with any car. But there is a very good reason why a bunch of 400, 500, 600 and even 1000+ hp Evos exist, and it isn't because it has tempermental damage prone drivetrain which is what you seem to be implying. Not the same with Subarus. Some of their engines can't even handle stock horsepower. Ring lands.
What does that have to do with the drivetrain?
The 4G63 and even the 4B11 are fine at 400. With race gas will it do a 600 run on a generous dyno? Sure. Been done with a stock block with both. Nobody is making 1000 HP on anything remotely resembling a stock block on either. But again, what's that have to do with the drivetrain?
I wouldn't say they're temperamental, damage-prone drivetrains. Particularly with AWD cars, is there anything that makes double the power it came from factory and doesn't have drivetrain problems? Not really knowing much about the STi except from an DSM/EVO perspective, they had the reputation of grenading drivetrains but that may have just been mudslinging. I don't know that much about them.
Competition is a good thing.The Fiesta ST is probably the best car nobody is buying (although I do tend to see a fair number of them around the bigger metro areas), but then the Fiesta is generally not the most sought-after car in that segment, either (so, reverse halo effect). The Focus holds its own against the competitors quite nicely. Plus, neither has the enthusiast cachet or the long-term unobtanium status of the RS.
My son has a Fiesta ST and it's a great little car for the price.
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