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And the neat thing coming is the Goodenough/Braga Solid State Battery. Twice the energy density of the Li-ion. No fires. And a very long life. Braga suggested it will hit the market in 2022. Spectrum Report...
Even before the solid state batteries arrive , the next 5 years should see significantly improved charge density and cost per kilowatt hour (like GM's Ultium and its derivatives).
But yes, when you take out the aqueous solution, that will be a really big deal. You need to be careful when setting expectations - batteries are a very different device than the CPUs and memory chips that they are sometimes compared to by tech evangelists. But they appear to have a lot more headroom than ICE engines when it comes to improvements, still on the steep part of the development curve.
And the neat thing coming is the Goodenough/Braga Solid State Battery. Twice the energy density of the Li-ion. No fires. And a very long life. Braga suggested it will hit the market in 2022. Spectrum Report...
Purportedly much cheaper than Li-ion. For instance they do not need a fire proof container as they will not burn. That is a significant cost and weight savings. And it has been reported that at least initially they gain capacity with use.
Here is a view from a developer...
*************************************
But if we switch to solid electrolyte, the electrolyte is not flammable so it’s safe. And then by using lithium metal as anode material, we can enhance the energy density by two times. So, we can go to 500 watt hours per kilogram. That would mean range increasing to as much as 800 kilometers (500 miles). And we could target cost down to $100 per kilowatt-hour for the pack.
************************************* https://electrek.co/2020/04/23/work-...moves-forward/
Oh no... You said something negative about an electric car and a thread the electric car police are going to come in here and tell you how misinformed you are and how electric cars are vastly superior to everything in all of history ever and if you don't think that will you are just misinformed.
The only real difference between a Tesla and another version of an electric car is that the Tesla uses lithium-ion batteries. The benefit you get with a lithium ion battery is a longer lifespan. It's not going to store any more energy it's not going to let you drive farther it's just a longer period before it's no longer usable.
I would give it time and see what they do with this solid state battery. If you really want an electric car. Maybe give them a few more years to make them better.
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Originally Posted by Pilot1
You can't bash their religion like that with bringing reality into the conversation. EV's are a huge step backwards in capability and function. It is regressive but it makes them feel better.
Oh, I've bunched my fair share of EV fanbois' panties. Did lots of research on electric cars and the truth is - they're very far from all the wet dreams the these people have about them. However, having driven a model S and a model 3, I must admit that once the charging infrastructure is up and running and they solve the battery recharging times it will most likely be game over for ICE on a large scale. This is coming from a life long car nut that owned nothing but manual transmissions for 20+ years.
I hate this with a passion but there are 2 things ICE cannot compete with. One is the international effort to push electrics through. Even though it creates a completely unlevel field by subsidizing EVs with taxpayers' own money and penalizing ICE engines there is no way to beat it if it gets continuously shoved down our throat. The other is the general ignorance of the average consumer. The electric motor takes out lots of ICE hurdles such as maintenance, sound, smell, feel - basically everything enthusiasts love and turns it into an appliance that average consumer with A-to-B needs craves. And since the latter are the majority, can't beat that either, sadly.
Oh, I've bunched my fair share of EV fanbois' panties. Did lots of research on electric cars and the truth is - they're very far from all the wet dreams the these people have about them. However, having driven a model S and a model 3, I must admit that once the charging infrastructure is up and running and they solve the battery recharging times it will most likely be game over for ICE on a large scale. This is coming from a life long car nut that owned nothing but manual transmissions for 20+ years.
that's the thing I don't have anything against electric cars great I'm glad people buy them I'm glad people are developing them. I'm not ready for one yet, maybe someday we'll see what happens.
And Elon Musk and Tesla made the electric car cool since the '60s they were these dreary little golf cart things that had no style. Tesla made a roadster that's pretty cool. I personally don't have any use at all for roadster but I still can appreciate it.
The thing is the Fanboys think that me not being 100% bought into it is somehow me being anti electric car.
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I hate this with a passion but there are 2 things ICE cannot compete with. One is the international effort to push electrics through. Even though it creates a completely unlevel field by subsidizing EVs with taxpayers' own money and penalizing ICE engines there is no way to beat it if it gets continuously shoved down our throat. The other is the general ignorance of the average consumer. The electric motor takes out lots of ICE hurdles such as maintenance, sound, smell, feel - basically everything enthusiasts love and turns it into an appliance that average consumer with A-to-B needs craves. And since the latter are the majority, can't beat that either, sadly.
I'm not really using sad about it it's just the next thing, maybe, I'm not sure about that yet
No amount of government subsidy can create demand.
I'm not a car enthusiast anymore I had to work on them professionally for years, I just want one that I can depend on. And I already have that and it was very cheap. For now at least. I don't care about acceleration or cornering I own a pickup truck. I care mostly about capability and a pickup truck that's gas powered has more because it's not tethered to an electrical grid that's the only thing.
Oh, I've bunched my fair share of EV fanbois' panties. Did lots of research on electric cars and the truth is - they're very far from all the wet dreams the these people have about them. However, having driven a model S and a model 3, I must admit that once the charging infrastructure is up and running and they solve the battery recharging times it will most likely be game over for ICE on a large scale. This is coming from a life long car nut that owned nothing but manual transmissions for 20+ years.
I hate this with a passion but there are 2 things ICE cannot compete with. One is the international effort to push electrics through. Even though it creates a completely unlevel field by subsidizing EVs with taxpayers' own money and penalizing ICE engines there is no way to beat it if it gets continuously shoved down our throat. The other is the general ignorance of the average consumer. The electric motor takes out lots of ICE hurdles such as maintenance, sound, smell, feel - basically everything enthusiasts love and turns it into an appliance that average consumer with A-to-B needs craves. And since the latter are the majority, can't beat that either, sadly.
You've got really good points here.
I agree the international effort in developed countries (and one developing country) that are home base to prominent automakers is a large part of why EVs will be popular soon. I do think some of the EV subsidies are excessive and hope they get removed soon, but then again, these policies are popular with a large portion of the voting public for a lot of these countries so the policies do reflect that to some extent. For those automakers, this means that diverting resources and talent to keep on with internal combustion engine development and production rather than putting them into EVs is going to end up not making much financial sense since their home markets are a significant part of their sales.
I think the general ignorance of the customer is one way to put it, but overall people like less maintenance time and costs for similar utility, so that doesn't seem unreasonable or wrong of them. After all, there is a lot of utility value in cars, regardless of the powertrain, so there are going to be a large proportion of people who have cars because it gets things done rather than being enthusiasts like you or I. That being said, as someone who has some electrical engineering experience, I also am pretty enthusiastic about electric motors, powertrains, and the controllers. For me, that's played out in terms of being particularly interested in EV conversions and the interesting setups that they're doing for such as not all motors, batteries, and controllers are the same. One thing that's sort of fun about electric motors are how small they are compared to engines for the same amount of power and how it's possible to do independent controls on four separate motors for each wheel which can open things up for some really weird (maybe useful) things to try.
I think there are two other overall points going for a near-term conversion to battery electric vehicles or at least plug-ins (whether full BEV or plugin hybrids).
One is the cost efficiency for operations. From power source to wheel, EVs are rather efficient in most situations compared to internal combustion engines which have difficulties in economically and relatively cleanly getting very high efficiency and thus for the vast majority of combustion engines in vehicles in the past, the present, and the foreseeable future, a good deal of that high energy density of gasoline is simply put out as waste heat. Motors are very efficient, and the power generation, transmission, and inverter losses aren't significant enough for the most part to make EVs less efficient overall. Add to that the little cherry on top of regenerative braking and the transmission/distribution efficiencies of electricity over wire versus pipelines, tankers, and then trucks to each gas station and the contrast becomes starker.
The other is general adaptability--internal combustion engines don't operate that efficiently in the first place and they are even less efficient if you use fuel stock that the engine wasn't built and tuned for. Even using a different grade of gas or having a high ethanol mix changes things and it becomes pretty disastrous if you put in diesel. There's just not a lot of flexibility in the source of that energy. Meanwhile, there are tried and true pathways as well as promising new ones to generate electricity including even from petroleum sources. If photovoltaic solar keeps improving, there's little economically reasonable pathway to turn that electricity generation into a specific grade of gas fit for internal combustion engines. The same is true for natural gas, coal, wind, hydro, geothermal, nuclear energy sources. Yes, there are natural gas vehicles out there, but that's not a conversion to gas your average vehicle can use--that's a whole other distribution, storage, and powertrain you need. This base flexibility in fuel stock is something that will have large economic and geopolitical ramifications and it's important our government and country makes the electrical grid investments and policies that considers this.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 03-12-2021 at 09:50 AM..
Purportedly much cheaper than Li-ion. For instance they do not need a fire proof container as they will not burn. That is a significant cost and weight savings. And it has been reported that at least initially they gain capacity with use.
Here is a view from a developer...
*************************************
But if we switch to solid electrolyte, the electrolyte is not flammable so it’s safe. And then by using lithium metal as anode material, we can enhance the energy density by two times. So, we can go to 500 watt hours per kilogram. That would mean range increasing to as much as 800 kilometers (500 miles). And we could target cost down to $100 per kilowatt-hour for the pack.
************************************* https://electrek.co/2020/04/23/work-...moves-forward/
If I haven't blown the arithmetic, an 82 kwh Tesla battery in a Model 3 LR would weigh 164 kg/362 pounds. Today, Tesla's 82 kwh battery pack is 1,060 pounds counting the metal case. That kind of weight reduction would add a lot of range so you could go with a lower capacity battery.
If I haven't blown the arithmetic, an 82 kwh Tesla battery in a Model 3 LR would weigh 164 kg/362 pounds. Today, Tesla's 82 kwh battery pack is 1,060 pounds counting the metal case. That kind of weight reduction would add a lot of range so you could go with a lower capacity battery.
I'm definitely on the side that I hope long range vehicles with already pretty large battery packs start putting the energy density gains towards a lighter pack and therefore a more efficient vehicle and with the price drops either reflected in price drops for the vehicle or put into other elements of the vehicle. How much past 82 kWh is really needed for a Model 3?
I agree the international effort in developed countries (and one developing country) that are home base to prominent automakers is a large part of why EVs will be popular soon. I do think some of the EV subsidies are excessive and hope they get removed soon, but then again, these policies are popular with a large portion of the voting public for a lot of these countries so the policies do reflect that to some extent. For those automakers, this means that diverting resources and talent to keep on with internal combustion engine development and production rather than putting them into EVs is going to end up not making much financial sense since their home markets are a significant part of their sales.
Whether they're popular or not is very arguable due to the fact that the government couldn't care less about it. They're not going to ask anyone about it and never have. In case of the US, the gov't put so much money into Tesla that they simply will not accept its failure so the only reasonable thing to do is to pump it up as much as possible. Hence all the incentives.
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I think the general ignorance of the customer is one way to put it, but overall people like less maintenance time and costs for similar utility, so that doesn't seem unreasonable or wrong of them. After all, there is a lot of utility value in cars, regardless of the powertrain, so there are going to be a large proportion of people who have cars because it gets things done rather than being enthusiasts like you or I.
On one side, you're right and that's what I was referring to. On the other, EVs totally cheapen the experience. Tesla is a poorly assembled, cheaply made piece of trash appliance which is only interesting because of its new drivetrain. Take that out and put a basic gas engine in it and very much nobody would buy it because it's just bad.
On top of that, electric drivetrain cheapens the whole experience. The gasoline engine makes the car somewhat alive while the electric part makes it a boring mute appliance. Of course as you said lots of people are happy with that but not all.
Quote:
That being said, as someone who has some electrical engineering experience, I also am pretty enthusiastic about electric motors, powertrains, and the controllers. For me, that's played out in terms of being particularly interested in EV conversions and the interesting setups that they're doing for such as not all motors, batteries, and controllers are the same. One thing that's sort of fun about electric motors are how small they are compared to engines for the same amount of power and how it's possible to do independent controls on four separate motors for each wheel which can open things up for some really weird (maybe useful) things to try.
Sorry but there is absolutely 0 excitement about electric motors in my book. They're very ubiquitous and with crazy 0-60 times that some EVs are exhibiting right from the get go there is really not much tweaking that can be done. Not to mention that manufacturers are very much against it, will void your warranty and will probably sue in the future if you try to hack their proprietary systems. They will have total and complete control in the future, much more so than now. Like I said before, electric vehicles are appliances. I don't consider them cars really. Maybe a smart fridge that happens to have a set of wheels.
The difference to me is obvious. I always loved cars, always cared for them and would never even think about kicking one because to me they're sort of mechanical animals. With an EV I'd kick one all day long because it's a soulless appliance, it can't "feel" anything so who cares?
Quote:
One is the cost efficiency for operations. From power source to wheel, EVs are rather efficient in most situations compared to internal combustion engines which have difficulties in economically and relatively cleanly getting very high efficiency and thus for the vast majority of combustion engines in vehicles in the past, the present, and the foreseeable future, a good deal of that high energy density of gasoline is simply put out as waste heat. Motors are very efficient, and the power generation, transmission, and inverter losses aren't significant enough for the most part to make EVs less efficient overall. Add to that the little cherry on top of regenerative braking and the transmission/distribution efficiencies of electricity over wire versus pipelines, tankers, and then trucks to each gas station and the contrast becomes starker.
The actual cherry on top you forgot to mention is the battery. It makes the EV extremely heavy (in some cases 1000lbs more than the equivalent ICE car), it's expensive to produce, service, replace and recycle. It also takes a long time to charge and is actually flammable as all hell to boot. And don't forget the damage to environment to make and recycle one. Of course technology is always advancing and they will get better somewhat but that could be decades away.
That and the fact that 28% of worldly emissions come from vehicles while 27% comes from generating energy, all EV does is take from the first number and move it into the second one. We're very far from being able to generate 100% green energy all over the world and I'm not even sure we ever will be able to do it at all. Wind generators are very inefficient and require huge amounts of space, water-based generators are only available in specific places and unless you live in a place that has tons of sun those sun catchers are mostly useless. Oh, and they're trying to get away from nuclear because of meltdowns. So I see is a lot of talk and not much more right now.
Purportedly much cheaper than Li-ion. For instance they do not need a fire proof container as they will not burn. That is a significant cost and weight savings. And it has been reported that at least initially they gain capacity with use.
Here is a view from a developer...
*************************************
But if we switch to solid electrolyte, the electrolyte is not flammable so it’s safe. And then by using lithium metal as anode material, we can enhance the energy density by two times. So, we can go to 500 watt hours per kilogram. That would mean range increasing to as much as 800 kilometers (500 miles). And we could target cost down to $100 per kilowatt-hour for the pack.
************************************* https://electrek.co/2020/04/23/work-...moves-forward/
That's not cheaper, let alone much cheaper, than what Li-ion batteries are going to be at in 5 years.
If they aren't cheaper, it's really going to limit the market for these in EVs.
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