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On top of that, electric drivetrain cheapens the whole experience. The gasoline engine makes the car somewhat alive while the electric part makes it a boring mute appliance. Of course as you said lots of people are happy with that but not all.
That's like, you're opinion,man, but it's not a factual thing. A zippy little hatchback that squirts through traffic, has a low CG for balanced handling, and instant throttle response, IS a fun car to use as a daily driver. It's as fun as a MINI Cooper S hardtop or a GTI or Hyundai Veloster, or anything of that ilk.
And if you're pining for the crude 4 cyl sound of an Accord or Camry, you're doing it wrong. MOST cars could be replaced with EVs and no one would pine that their rough sounding 4 and V6 engines are gone.
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The difference to me is obvious. I always loved cars, always cared for them and would never even think about kicking one because to me they're sort of mechanical animals. With an EV I'd kick one all day long because it's a soulless appliance, it can't "feel" anything so who cares?
Anthropomorphizing cars is not a factual thing. Gas cars are as much machines as EVs and can't feel anything either.
I've always loved cars, had proper sports car and musclecars. Everything from MGBs to Porsches to big block Mustangs and about everything in between. I hand built my Ford 302 (well, 306, as I overbored it and upped the compression ratio) powered RX7 that ran 11s and pulled over 1.2 Gs laterally.
I've built hot rods and customs, and did a stint restoring vintage race cars. Here's my '63 Comet project, my Volt (before customization) and my '31 Ford hot rod.
And I LOVE modern EVs and EV conversions, like EV west does to Porsches, VWs, and BMWs. And I've even taken to customizing them, like my Volt mild custom:
I still have an 8.1 liter big block Suburban 2500 for towing, and my MINI Cooper JCW Roadster for top down weekend fun. But an EV converted MGB would be as much fun (and contrary to your claim, there's a lot of EV hot rodding being done. Rich Rebuilds built a $3000 MINI Cooper EV using a used 300 hp motor, the stock gearbox, and used motor controller and a pair of used Volt batteries to make a VERY quick, cheap fun car). Please don't sound like those guys that said hot rodding was over when electronic fuel injection and ignition started coming stock on cars...
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The actual cherry on top you forgot to mention is the battery. It makes the EV extremely heavy (in some cases 1000lbs more than the equivalent ICE car), it's expensive to produce, service, replace and recycle. It also takes a long time to charge and is actually flammable as all hell to boot. And don't forget the damage to environment to make and recycle one. Of course technology is always advancing and they will get better somewhat but that could be decades away.
It's not environmentally unfriendly to recycle the batteries, and when they get to the end of their automotive life, you can use them as commercial battery backup systems. They are less dirty than drilling for oil and burning it in the individual car.
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That and the fact that 28% of worldly emissions come from vehicles while 27% comes from generating energy, all EV does is take from the first number and move it into the second one.
Well, that is a lot of the point. Take pollution away from the individual point sources in the areas of congestion. Individual point sources that are getting dirtier every year you use them, BTW. And replace them with regulated, centralized sources of energy that are getting CLEANER every year. And the EV is source agnostic, so as cleaner sources of electricity are developed, your used EV gets cleaner as a result. You can't do that with an aging gas powered car. You think it's not important? I have friends in Texas with Bolts that used their Bolt in their garage to stay warm in while the power was out. Try running your gas car in your garage with it closed to stay warm, see how that CO treats you. AND they used barely 10% of their available battery power to stay warm for a WEEK. Yeah, a week of "idling" the car in the garage to stay warm.
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unless you live in a place that has tons of sun those sun catchers are mostly useless.
This is simply not factual. Same with the rejoinder that they are useless in the cold.
Right now, at present solar panel efficiencies, 5000 square miles of solar panels would provide half the energy needs of the US (the study done in 2006 that everyone cites says 20,000 square miles to cover the entire US needs, but, we can chop that in half to cover half our needs, and chop it in half again, because when that study was done, solar panels were 10-12% efficient. They are now 20%+ efficient and getting better al the time). That could easily be spread out over the flat rooftops of commercial buildings, warehouses, stores and parking lots. And even if you only did it in the southern states and not even on private homes, you could easily reach that number. Add in all the private homes as far north as Maine and Michigan and you can generate even more of our needs just with solar. Yes, you need storage for night time use, but if you left modern power plants to cover overnight use, we'd still need a lot less power generation from them to meet our needs.
Whether they're popular or not is very arguable due to the fact that the government couldn't care less about it. They're not going to ask anyone about it and never have. In case of the US, the gov't put so much money into Tesla that they simply will not accept its failure so the only reasonable thing to do is to pump it up as much as possible. Hence all the incentives.
On one side, you're right and that's what I was referring to. On the other, EVs totally cheapen the experience. Tesla is a poorly assembled, cheaply made piece of trash appliance which is only interesting because of its new drivetrain. Take that out and put a basic gas engine in it and very much nobody would buy it because it's just bad.
On top of that, electric drivetrain cheapens the whole experience. The gasoline engine makes the car somewhat alive while the electric part makes it a boring mute appliance. Of course as you said lots of people are happy with that but not all.
Sorry but there is absolutely 0 excitement about electric motors in my book. They're very ubiquitous and with crazy 0-60 times that some EVs are exhibiting right from the get go there is really not much tweaking that can be done. Not to mention that manufacturers are very much against it, will void your warranty and will probably sue in the future if you try to hack their proprietary systems. They will have total and complete control in the future, much more so than now. Like I said before, electric vehicles are appliances. I don't consider them cars really. Maybe a smart fridge that happens to have a set of wheels.
The difference to me is obvious. I always loved cars, always cared for them and would never even think about kicking one because to me they're sort of mechanical animals. With an EV I'd kick one all day long because it's a soulless appliance, it can't "feel" anything so who cares?
The actual cherry on top you forgot to mention is the battery. It makes the EV extremely heavy (in some cases 1000lbs more than the equivalent ICE car), it's expensive to produce, service, replace and recycle. It also takes a long time to charge and is actually flammable as all hell to boot. And don't forget the damage to environment to make and recycle one. Of course technology is always advancing and they will get better somewhat but that could be decades away.
That and the fact that 28% of worldly emissions come from vehicles while 27% comes from generating energy, all EV does is take from the first number and move it into the second one. We're very far from being able to generate 100% green energy all over the world and I'm not even sure we ever will be able to do it at all. Wind generators are very inefficient and require huge amounts of space, water-based generators are only available in specific places and unless you live in a place that has tons of sun those sun catchers are mostly useless. Oh, and they're trying to get away from nuclear because of meltdowns. So I see is a lot of talk and not much more right now.
I think different countries have different kinds of governments, and some governments are more responsive than others. I'm good friends with some people in Norway and we go back and forth a bit and their populace as a whole seems to be very much into government policy proactively structuring things towards zero tailpipe emissions vehicles, almost as a point of pride for the country. Their form of government allows for many different parties to have significant control and differing policies, but the majority of them align at least on this as an issue (plus it definitely makes a lot of sense for them given that more oil sent for export rather than internal use is good for their balance of trade and they have ample renewable electricity generation). It's generally immigration and European integration that's the bigger dividing point among the parties there. The US government itself is pretty complex and byzantine, but the investment into Tesla and electric vehicles are quite small compared to many other items including our historic investment into hydrocarbon resources and technologies. Keep in mind, we're only about a decade and a half removed from a massive bailout of two of the three major US automakers.
Tesla seems to have build quality issues at times. Supposedly the vehicles from the Shanghai plant have far fewer issues when it comes to assembly, so I don't know what to make of that. Maybe the Fremont plant needs a bit of work and protocols. However, that doesn't seem to be an issue inherent to EVs versus ICE vehicles.
I think the majority of people could not care all that much about the powertrain itself as opposed to the utility value, value proposition, or even raw performance stats. I do care to some extent because I grew up really into cars and engines, but that wasn't true among the vast majority of people around me even when there were no real mass market EVs. EVs seem to be veering in the same direction with most people not really mucking with any significant modifications, alterations, etc. nor doing any deep dives into the powertrain components, but with some pretty hardcore enthusiasts who are really into doing such. There's certainly a lot of different motors, batteries, and controllers to play around with and that's only going to grow as will people doing some pretty ridiculous things with salvaged or old EVs and increasingly so as there are more EVs, parts suppliers, and EV auto shops. In terms of tweaking performance, EVs have some pretty incredible capabilities that could be really fun to try maxing out, and I do like both the responsiveness and having that strong feel and sound of the road without the rumble and din of the engine.
I think there are going to be parts of tweaking an EV that involve a very different knowledge base and abilities that don't necessarily overlap very well with people enthused about working with ICE vehicles. I understand some people just aren't going to be able or interested or both, but to me, it also doesn't mean that viewpoint is somehow more "correct." This also goes with your viewpoint about appliances and "feelings". There's almost certainly a nostalgia value in there as well and it's going to be the older people especially who are going to have certain sounds, feelings, terminology, sights, and smells that are associated with these vehicles that subsequent generations simply won't be as attached to because it wasn't part of their formative years. It'll still exist though. After all, it's not like there aren't large communities of horse enthusiasts even though it's rare for the vast majority of people to see them plying the streets in their day to day--and horses are definitely much closer to something that feels "alive" than an ICE vehicle and aren't just mechanical animals, but just full-on animals.
There are definitely some drawbacks to batteries right now which is the main point of the article brought up by the OP--that batteries are reaching a tipping point in cost but aren't there right now for EVs to be competitive or better in most automotive segments today. The tipping point mentioned comes with a reduction in the raw materials used in order to become cheaper and to be more energy dense so the same amount of capacity takes up less space and weighs less. That's the point of the article the OP posted: the tipping point seems to be arriving pretty soon because batteries have gotten cheaper and more energy dense. These are going to be great for driving enthusiasts because less weight and cost for the same power (or just more power if you really, really want it) is going to be fun for modding and for handling and overall feel. Right now, I think the only EVs currently available in the US that are cost competitive with their closest ICE counterparts without counting incentives are the Tesla luxury vehicles, the Mini Electric small city car, and the Bolt hot hatch and pseudo hot-hatch crossover variant. With some progression of battery technology, there'll probably be more entrants that are competitive. I really like what I think is the ultimate "appliance" vehicle that the startup Canoo has--reminds me of the old VW microbuses which I have a fondness for.
That last part about emissions and inefficiencies is a bit odd to me. The electricity generation certainly doesn't come free nor will it be 100% renewable anytime soon, but it is generally a lot more efficient from raw materials to wheels on the road and is a lot more adaptable to different power supply sources than ICE vehicles are. It's a matter of comparative efficiency rather than it being a complete elimination of waste, emissions, and other issues. After all, we certainly aren't on our way to generating 100% renewable internal combustion engine fuel in any particularly meaningful or economical way.
Last edited by OyCrumbler; 03-12-2021 at 03:17 PM..
not long ago, before i had my tesla, i remember guys talking about cars. these are guys talking about high end performance cars or high end luxury cars for their own use. one of them said that he had an electric car (probably model s but im not sure) and he doesnt ever want a gas car again. i thought the statement seemed really strange considering all the nice options in the price range he was discussing and the limited options in electric. but now i kinda feel the same way and im not 100% sure why.
one thing i know is that when i drive a regular car it feels all loosy goosey because of the lack of regenerative braking.
oh and btw i dont want more people to have teslas. the less people that have it, the more unique mine is. i dont particularly care if EVs are adopted by more people quickly. i dont want to sound like some kind of EV missionary who cares what other people get. my opinions are based on my experiences and my own satisfaction, i dont care about the products to the extent beyond what i need to get the service/products i want.
Last edited by CaptainNJ; 03-12-2021 at 02:57 PM..
Oh, I've bunched my fair share of EV fanbois' panties. Did lots of research on electric cars and the truth is - they're very far from all the wet dreams the these people have about them. However, having driven a model S and a model 3, I must admit that once the charging infrastructure is up and running and they solve the battery recharging times it will most likely be game over for ICE on a large scale. This is coming from a life long car nut that owned nothing but manual transmissions for 20+ years.
I hate this with a passion but there are 2 things ICE cannot compete with. One is the international effort to push electrics through. Even though it creates a completely unlevel field by subsidizing EVs with taxpayers' own money and penalizing ICE engines there is no way to beat it if it gets continuously shoved down our throat. The other is the general ignorance of the average consumer. The electric motor takes out lots of ICE hurdles such as maintenance, sound, smell, feel - basically everything enthusiasts love and turns it into an appliance that average consumer with A-to-B needs craves. And since the latter are the majority, can't beat that either, sadly.
I am a car enthusiast. My first “real” car was a 1997 BMW M3. I replaced brakes, intake, transmission mounts, and headlights the first year I owned it because I had never worked on a car before and was curious. I made friends with a shop owner and he let me use his shop to change my oil.
I joined the local car club, did some performance driving schools, and then started taking it on the track. I participated in AutoX and placed pretty well.
I got rid of that car and got a B5 Audi S4 with the V6 biturbo. I overboosted the turbos and tracked that car as well. I won an AutoX on a frozen lake. Very fun car.
I have had a couple other German sports cars in there as well.
I currently have two vehicles in the garage: 5.7L V8 Toyota and a Tesla Model 3.
The Toyota is the long distance hauler. We pull a trailer with it and take it on longer trips to the mountains. The Tesla gets the bulk of our family miles. It is a ton of fun to drive. It’s very quick, bordering on violently fast. No maintenance is a good thing. Never visiting a smelly gas station is awesome.
There are certainly people that have unreasonable views of what EVs are good for, but in a two vehicle family, having one EV and one ICE makes a ton of sense. Most people do not drive more than a couple hundred miles in a day. I don’t understand why people are so polarized about EVs. They are pretty practical. The government subsidizes them, but the government also subsidizes oil companies to get you cheaper gas. I don’t see the difference.
one thing i know is that when i drive a regular car it feels all loosy goosey because of the lack of regenerative braking.
Totally. When I drive my wife's ICE it feels...disconnected might be the right word? It has a decent V6 in it and a modern trans and chassis but just feels like everything is a delayed response. Feels like forever for the revs to bubble up and the trans to feel engaged. Plus my wife will criticize my braking b/c her brakes, though good, just feel so loose.
Totally. When I drive my wife's ICE it feels...disconnected might be the right word? It has a decent V6 in it and a modern trans and chassis but just feels like everything is a delayed response. Feels like forever for the revs to bubble up and the trans to feel engaged. Plus my wife will criticize my braking b/c her brakes, though good, just feel so loose.
Agree. One pedal driving is fantastic once you get used to it.
That's a great use for an EV. SHORT commutes and around town errands. If your driving is mostly limited to those, an EV makes a lot of sense. I see them as a great SECOND car just for this type of driving. However, many can not justify two cars so ICE car covers all their driving.
PHEV, with the gasoline engine, is still somewhat an ICE vehicle, but I think they make a lot of sense. I also think hybrids are a good alternative as gas prices rise.
Most couples I know have two cars. In that scenario, one ICE and one EV makes a ton of sense. The EV is the primary car and the ICE vehicle is only used for long distances.
Agree. One pedal driving is fantastic once you get used to it.
My Clarity doesn't have the most aggressive regen braking, so it's still 2 feet but the brakes are just linear and firm all the time, and the moderate regen before i even start braking just smooths everything out.
The government subsidizes them, but the government also subsidizes oil companies to get you cheaper gas. I don’t see the difference.
How exactly does the government subsidizes oil companies? Be specific and these should be things that don't just apply to all businesses.
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