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In deep water an EV can drive better than ICE car because the electric motors has good water insolation and the battery are completely sealed and wires are shielded. Elon Musk says the car can drive in deep water but don't try it too long.
Any ICE, once the water finds a hole into the engine it's toast.
It's off-topic but I disagree. Check out this old Toyota Land Cruiser.
One of the benefits to an electric vehicle is that I don't have to go somewhere to put energy into it, it just passively does it in it's downtime. That's probably the thing that makes them most attractive to me. That being said my workplace doesn't have charging stations sometimes I work where there is no electricity at all. So charging at work is out of the question I'm not a cubicle warmer. If I was and my company had charging stations I probably consider an electric car but I'm not.
But the entire grid can fail and my gasoline car will still work. I can still get fuel. a lot of gas stations have generators so that crap about pumps being electric and somehow you can't get gas out of the tank is absolute BS.
It will be a while and we will need a lot more infrastructure developments before I even consider it. I would also want the cars to advance a little bit as it stands now there's no way that would buy these piles of junk. I like dependability in my vehicles and I already have that.
We are also prone to high water in my area. My current vehicle because it's not chock full of batteries on the very bottom of it is perfectly capable of handling to 14 inches of water where I park it. Such a thing would probably absolutely destroy an electric vehicle.
The benefit of a conventional vehicle is within the vehicle frame it creates its own energy, so it isn't reliant upon something else to create energy for it.
That is one of the benefits. Otherwise are zero tailpipe emissions, generally lower cost of operations and maintenance, quieter operation, immediately available torque to make things feel pretty zippy from the get go, and more interior cabin / storage space per exterior dimensions.
It depends on how far the grid fails--it's possible just a few miles out there's still power to charge from. It's also possible for a fast charger station to have local battery storage power to draw from. If resilience is really that important to you, the electric vehicle is better because you have multiple backup sources possible from solar to natural gas generator if you have a natural gas hookup to your house to gas generator which is what your gas station's pump would supposedly be using to electrically power the pumps in a power outage. You basically have a lot more options if you really are that worried about it.
This doesn't change things from the fact that you aren't addressing though--when the grid goes out, it does not draw or disable the power from your electric vehicle. Since EVs when charged at home generally start with a pretty full tank every day, when the power goes out at home you still have a pretty full tank. It also means if you were in there to get heat because you don't have it in the house, you aren't liable to die from carbon monoxide poisoning which was a major cause of deaths and hospitalizations when the Texas grid went out and people turned to heating inside their cars.
You also have things flipped when it comes to high water areas. You seem to think that for some reason, EVs are like exposed copper wire out in the water. That's not how that works as it's mostly a sealed battery and other units. Meanwhile, a real flooding that's of sufficiently high level will screw an ICE vehicle for various reasons and that includes running the vehicle at a certain level where the water meets the air intake for an ICE powertrain--remember, an ICE powertrain works via combustion and needs to constantly draw air with oxygen to make combustion happen. It does not carry an oxygen tank with it usually. You get no combustion when you have no air intake into the engine which is not something EVs worry about.
That is one of the benefits. Otherwise are zero tailpipe emissions, generally lower cost of operations and maintenance, quieter operation, immediately available torque to make things feel pretty zippy from the get go, and more interior cabin / storage space per exterior dimensions.
I don't really care about tailpipe emissions since they don't really contribute to pollution in any real significant way. Very seriously doubt the cost of operations and maintenance is lower you have to buy the damn thing and they're exorbitantly overpriced. These tinker Toys should cost $5,000 tops. They're far less complicated. And away to translate non-maintenance parts is extremely expensive when they fail. But I don't care about torque or zippiness.
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It depends on how far the grid fails--it's possible just a few miles out there's still power to charge from. It's also possible for a fast charger station to have local battery storage power to draw from.
but there's already loads of infrastructure already there for conventional vehicles I don't have to think about all this crap.
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If resilience is really that important to you, the electric vehicle is better because you have multiple backup sources possible from solar to natural gas generator if you have a natural gas hookup to your house to gas generator which is what your gas station's pump would supposedly be using to electrically power the pumps in a power outage. You basically have a lot more options if you really are that worried about it.
but with the vehicle I have currently and I didn't have to buy anything I don't need any of that garbage. It's already ready to go and I don't have to buy anything.
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This doesn't change things from the fact that you aren't addressing though--when the grid goes out, it does not draw or disable the power from your electric vehicle.
but you only have until the battery goes dead and then it's just a piece of garbage littering the street. I can go to a gas station and get a can of gas and pour in there I can't do that with electricity.
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Since EVs when charged at home generally start with a pretty full tank every day, when the power goes out at home you still have a pretty full tank. It also means if you were in there to get heat because you don't have it in the house, you aren't liable to die from carbon monoxide poisoning which was a major cause of deaths and hospitalizations when the Texas grid went out and people turned to heating inside their cars.
you only have a matter of time before your vehicle is worthless if the power is out you can't magic up some more power and put in there. and I don't need to buy a generator I don't need backup batteries for the vehicle I already have.
further I probably will never die of carbon monoxide poisoning because I know better than to run a vehicle and a garage. So none of these points are persuasive.
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You also have things flipped when it comes to high water areas. You seem to think that for some reason, EVs are like exposed copper wire out in the water. That's not how that works as it's mostly a sealed battery and other units.
okay take an easy and drop it down into the bottom of the pool and then drive it out then I'll be convinced they are unaffected by water.
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Meanwhile, a real flooding that's of sufficiently high level will screw an ICE vehicle for various reasons and that includes running the vehicle at a certain level where the water meets the air intake for an ICE powertrain--remember, an ICE powertrain works via combustion and needs to constantly draw air with oxygen to make combustion happen. It does not carry an oxygen tank with it usually. You get no combustion when you have no air intake into the engine which is not something EVs worry about.
for the second time my Air intake is higher than the top of most electric cars.
If you are making the point that electric cars are somehow also submarines I don't believe you.
the components I have to worry about getting wet on my vehicle or electrical components that if they fail the vehicle will still run, into the intake these things are already pretty high on my truck higher than the top of most electric vehicles.
I don't really care about tailpipe emissions since they don't really contribute to pollution in any real significant way. Very seriously doubt the cost of operations and maintenance is lower you have to buy the damn thing and they're exorbitantly overpriced. These tinker Toys should cost $5,000 tops. They're far less complicated. And away to translate non-maintenance parts is extremely expensive when they fail. But I don't care about torque or zippiness.
but there's already loads of infrastructure already there for conventional vehicles I don't have to think about all this crap.
but with the vehicle I have currently and I didn't have to buy anything I don't need any of that garbage. It's already ready to go and I don't have to buy anything.
but you only have until the battery goes dead and then it's just a piece of garbage littering the street. I can go to a gas station and get a can of gas and pour in there I can't do that with electricity.
you only have a matter of time before your vehicle is worthless if the power is out you can't magic up some more power and put in there. and I don't need to buy a generator I don't need backup batteries for the vehicle I already have.
further I probably will never die of carbon monoxide poisoning because I know better than to run a vehicle and a garage. So none of these points are persuasive.
okay take an easy and drop it down into the bottom of the pool and then drive it out then I'll be convinced they are unaffected by water.
for the second time my Air intake is higher than the top of most electric cars.
If you are making the point that electric cars are somehow also submarines I don't believe you.
the components I have to worry about getting wet on my vehicle or electrical components that if they fail the vehicle will still run, into the intake these things are already pretty high on my truck higher than the top of most electric vehicles.
It's okay if you don't care. However, it doesn't change the problem especially for people who live near high traffic areas that generally seem a much larger prevalence of asthma especially among children. It's okay if you don't think that matter or is significant, but from a public health policy perspective it is. It doesn't matter if you have doubts about maintenance and operation, after all, you haven't owned an EV before so you wouldn't really have either looked into it in detail or have had the experience. Others have and are seeing lower operations and maintenance for the most part. And yea, they are often priced higher than their closest ICE counterparts when it comes to the initial purchase--hence why it's important for battery costs to come down. Right now, by my reckoning, there are only a few vehicles that are priced competitively with their closest ICE counterparts before federal tax incentives.
There are loads of infrastructure for charging a vehicle--just not as much for charging a vehicle quickly. However, there are a good number of people and places that can easily put in at least a level 2 charger and also a good number of people whose daily usage can get by with being covered by just a regular wall socket. If you do not have power where you park though, EVs right now and for the near future aren't going to give you much of an advantage.
Similarly, your ICE vehicle is only any good if it has fuel. If it has no fuel then it's just as much garbage as an EV with no charge. You definitely wouldn't pour in gas to an EV, but then you also wouldn't plug in an electrical connection to the fuel tank of an ICE vehicle either.
EVs aren't generally built for being submerged, but there have been numerous cases of EVs doing alright with high water. You understand that ICE vehicles need air intake to operate and that submarines underwater do not do air intake, right?
It's okay if you don't care. However, it doesn't change the problem especially for people who live near high traffic areas that generally seem a much larger prevalence of asthma especially among children. It's okay if you don't think that matter or is significant, but from a public health policy perspective it is.
I don't believe this sounds like one of those claims that you can't support.
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It doesn't matter if you have doubts about maintenance and operation, after all, you haven't owned an EV before so you wouldn't really have either looked into it in detail or have had the experience. Others have and are seeing lower operations and maintenance for the most part.
there's no such thing as a perfect machine if you don't maintain it they fail there is no way you're ever going to sell me that it doesn't need minutes of course it does or it has throw away parts which is worse.
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And yea, they are often priced higher than their closest ICE counterparts when it comes to the initial purchase--hence why it's important for battery costs to come down. Right now, by my reckoning, there are only a few vehicles that are priced competitively with their closest ICE counterparts before federal tax incentives.
I'm not spending that kind of money on a less useful vehicle I don't care if you think they walk on water I don't.
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There are loads of infrastructure for charging a vehicle--just not as much for charging a vehicle quickly. However, there are a good number of people and places that can easily put in at least a level 2 charger and also a good number of people whose daily usage can get by with being covered by just a regular wall socket. If you do not have power where you park though, EVs right now and for the near future aren't going to give you much of an advantage.
yeah I know they're disadvantaged. If you think they're great and you love yours and you own one that's good for you. I'm not going to at least not for a while.
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Similarly, your ICE vehicle is only any good if it has fuel. If it has no fuel then it's just as much garbage as an EV with no charge.
but I can get fuel anywhere I wish in the United States. it's extremely convenient and it takes about five minutes to fill up the tank. That's where conventional cars that have supremacy over electric ones. There is no way on this planet that you can convince me that I can't do that I already know better.
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You definitely wouldn't pour in gas to an EV, but then you also wouldn't plug in an electrical connection to the fuel tank of an ICE vehicle either.
yeah but I could just pour some gasoline into my conventional vehicle and it starts right up I don't need to wait two hours for it to charge I don't have to have it towed anywhere, and that is what makes them Superior to every electric car you can imagine.
it makes its own energy that means it's its own power plant it's not dependent on an electrical grid
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EVs aren't generally built for being submerged, but there have been numerous cases of EVs doing alright with high water. You understand that ICE vehicles need air intake to operate and that submarines underwater do not do air intake, right?
I don't believe you that electric cars are submarines.
You should go with the lie that they can drive on top of the water call him the Jesus car and guarantee that they'll also enlarge your penis. if you going to say bologna you might as well make it good bologna.
I don't believe this sounds like one of those claims that you can't support. there's no such thing as a perfect machine if you don't maintain it they fail there is no way you're ever going to sell me that it doesn't need minutes of course it does or it has throw away parts which is worse.
I'm not spending that kind of money on a less useful vehicle I don't care if you think they walk on water I don't.
yeah I know they're disadvantaged. If you think they're great and you love yours and you own one that's good for you. I'm not going to at least not for a while.
but I can get fuel anywhere I wish in the United States. it's extremely convenient and it takes about five minutes to fill up the tank. That's where conventional cars that have supremacy over electric ones. There is no way on this planet that you can convince me that I can't do that I already know better.
yeah but I could just pour some gasoline into my conventional vehicle and it starts right up I don't need to wait two hours for it to charge I don't have to have it towed anywhere, and that is what makes them Superior to every electric car you can imagine.
it makes its own energy that means it's its own power plant it's not dependent on an electrical grid
I don't believe you that electric cars are submarines.
You should go with the lie that they can drive on top of the water call him the Jesus car and guarantee that they'll also enlarge your penis. if you going to say bologna you might as well make it good bologna.
No one is claiming any EV is a perfect machine--only that there are a lot of use cases where they are generally better than their ICE counterparts and that you often don't seem to know much about EVs but make comments that are just patently false or exaggerated. You're the one making things up and then claiming things are being said that no one is saying. Who said EVs are perfect machines?
The US has a very large national grid. The vast majority of homes and places of businesses in the US have electricity.
ICE vehicles do have an advantage where it's extremely convenient to refuel to get a lot of additional range in a short period of time. That is an advantage of ICE vehicles. However, the disadvantage to EVs on that isn't as striking as you seem to make it out to be for most people. One thing is waiting for two hours for recharging--but why are you waiting for two hours? Most EVs now don't take that long to recharge at a fast charger. Are you waiting around for two hours just because you can? Regardless, EVs are fine for the most part except for if you're in a combination of extremely cold winters like that in subarctic/arctic climates, you frequently tow very large loads over multiple hundreds of miles, and/or you frequently take 400+ mile trips each way and never stop for more than 10 minutes. Are there people who frequently need their vehicles to operate in one or all of those conditions? Yes, certainly those people exist, but there are plenty of people who do not frequently find themselves in any of those situations.
ICE vehicles make their own energy in some ways, but you still need to refuel them just as you still need to recharge an EVs batteries. Your fuel tank doesn't naturally replenish itself with fuel just as an EV's batteries does not naturally just charge itself.
No one said electric cars are built as submarines--they are just not intrinsically at greater risk of this 14 inches of water than your ICE vehicle. You brought up the situation without having any knowledge of EVs that "Such a thing would probably absolutely destroy an electric vehicle." That's just flat out false.
correlation does not equal causation but nice try.
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No one is claiming any EV is a perfect machine--only that there are a lot of use cases where they are generally better than their ICE counterparts
that's your opinion and you're entitled to it I don't agree.
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You can get electricity anywhere you wish in the US.
that's odd because I seem to remember power outages and I couldn't get electricity anywhere. And then I've been out in the field for days sometimes over a week and there's not a little magical electrical genie that follows me around.
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Most EVs now don't take that long to recharge at a fast charger. Are you waiting around for two hours just because you can?
but I don't even have to think about that nonsense.
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ICE vehicles make their own energy via refueling which you have to do just as an EV needs to recharge.
I would prefer to refuel it's quicker it's easier it's cheaper. Keep in mind the machine I have that burns fuel cost me $4,000 to purchase, and about $400 a year to insure. If I factor in the cost of insurance and a car payments for a brand new electric car it costs more to operate.
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No one said electric cars are built as submarines--they are just not intrinsically at greater risk of this 14 inches of water than your ICE vehicle.
I don't believe you
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You flat out have that wrong.
I still don't believe you
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You brought up the situation without having any knowledge of EVs that "Such a thing would probably absolutely destroy an electric vehicle." That's just flat out false.
go drive through 14 inches of water in your electric car have fun. I'm not going to buy one so I don't have to worry about it.
No one is claiming any EV is a perfect machine--only that there are a lot of use cases where they are generally better than their ICE counterparts and that you often don't seem to know much about EVs but make comments that are just patently false or exaggerated. You're the one making things up and then claiming things are being said that no one is saying. Who said EVs are perfect machines?
The US has a very large national grid. The vast majority of homes and places of businesses in the US have electricity.
ICE vehicles do have an advantage where it's extremely convenient to refuel to get a lot of additional range in a short period of time. That is an advantage of ICE vehicles. However, the disadvantage to EVs on that isn't as striking as you seem to make it out to be for most people. One thing is waiting for two hours for recharging--but why are you waiting for two hours? Most EVs now don't take that long to recharge at a fast charger. Are you waiting around for two hours just because you can? Regardless, EVs are fine for the most part except for if you're in a combination of extremely cold winters like that in subarctic/arctic climates, you frequently tow very large loads over multiple hundreds of miles, and/or you frequently take 400+ mile trips each way and never stop for more than 10 minutes. Are there people who frequently need their vehicles to operate in one or all of those conditions? Yes, certainly those people exist, but there are plenty of people who do not frequently find themselves in any of those situations.
ICE vehicles make their own energy in some ways, but you still need to refuel them just as you still need to recharge an EVs batteries. Your fuel tank doesn't naturally replenish itself with fuel just as an EV's batteries does not naturally just charge itself.
No one said electric cars are built as submarines--they are just not intrinsically at greater risk of this 14 inches of water than your ICE vehicle. You brought up the situation without having any knowledge of EVs that "Such a thing would probably absolutely destroy an electric vehicle." That's just flat out false.
Just because you see someone driving their car through high water and it doesn't fail at that exact moment doesn't mean it doesn't cause problems telling people they can do this is not just the false on your part but it's dangerous. Show me that car 3 weeks later having absolutely zero problems.
correlation does not equal causation but nice try.
that's your opinion and you're entitled to it I don't agree.
that's odd because I seem to remember power outages and I couldn't get electricity anywhere. And then I've been out in the field for days sometimes over a week and there's not a little magical electrical genie that follows me around.
but I don't even have to think about that nonsense.
I would prefer to refuel it's quicker it's easier it's cheaper. Keep in mind the machine I have that burns fuel cost me $4,000 to purchase, and about $400 a year to insure. If I factor in the cost of insurance and a car payments for a brand new electric car it costs more to operate.
I don't believe you
I still don't believe you
go drive through 14 inches of water in your electric car have fun. I'm not going to buy one so I don't have to worry about it.
Correlation does not mean there is no causation and if you actually look through the links, some of them actually do talk about causative effects rather than just correlation.
How is me saying that I'm not claiming EVs are a perfect machine just my opinion? There is no instance of me saying EVs are perfect. Do you understand what an opinion is?
Yea and people recall not being able to get fuel at pumps. That also exists.
The fact is that you're exaggerating the charge times. You are doing more than thinking about that nonsense--you're making up nonsense.
I understand wanting to refuel quickly--that makes sense especially in the context of someone who does not have the ability to recharge their vehicles at home or when parked at work. That's an actual legitimate criticism of EVs for a lot of people as they don't get to take advantage of one of the primary benefits of having an EV. That's at least reasonable and something that isn't just lying nonsense.
You don't believe that no one is saying electric vehicles aren't submarines? Yea, I guess it's possible someone said it as a joke, sure. I guess it's better to rephrase that as no one is seriously claiming that electric cars are meant to function as submarines.
That video has multiple people driving EVs through high water. It's probably still not a good idea, but obviously your "Such a thing would probably absolutely destroy an electric vehicle" is demonstrably false.
Why make things up? What is the point in doing that?
Correlation does not mean there is no causation and if you actually look through the links, some of them actually do talk about causative effects rather than just correlation.
I'm not interested in going out to lynx and having to compile your argument but thanks.
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How is me saying that I'm not claiming EVs are a perfect machine just my opinion? There is no instance of me saying EVs are perfect. Do you understand what an opinion is?
you claiming that they're better is your opinion and that's fine you can think whatever you want. My position is if it was a true thing that they would represent a much larger part of the market.
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Yea and people recall not being able to get fuel at pumps. That also exists.
power outages have happened a lot more to me than not being able to get fuel I don't think the latter has happened to me before.
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The fact is that you're exaggerating the charge times. You are doing more than thinking about that nonsense--you're making up nonsense.
to fully charge a completely drained battery takes a lot longer than it does to fully fill a completely empty fuel tank.
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I understand wanting to refuel quickly--that makes sense especially in the context of someone who does not have the ability to recharge their vehicles at home or when parked at work. That's an actual legitimate criticism of EVs for a lot of people as they don't get to take advantage of one of the primary benefits of having an EV. That's at least reasonable and something that isn't just lying nonsense.
I don't care how much you insist my criticisms are lies or nonsense. That's normally a deeply emotional reaction. Just FYI I'm not attacking anything with my criticisms, least of all you. So this shrill over defensive act really isn't necessary.
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You don't believe that no one is saying electric vehicles aren't submarines?
get another straw man fallacy that is a crutch of the dishonest. I don't believe you that they are perfectly fine being submerged in 14 inches of water.
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That video has multiple people driving EVs through high water. It's probably still not a good idea, but obviously your "Such a thing would probably absolutely destroy an electric vehicle" is demonstrably false.
you haven't demonstrated that you showed me a video of people driving through water with electric vehicles what happened to them after that moment?
Just because it doesn't get destroyed right at that moment doesn't mean nothing happens to them. Sometimes water damage takes weeks.
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What other things are you going to make up now?
I don't have to make up anything 100% of your arguments are in bad faith.
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