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On tv they have been showing accidents by drivers skidding on ice in Pittsburgh and other East coast cities. It looks wild and helpless & a lot of fun but I am sure scary also. What can a driver do when he hits ice on the road? Not hit the brakes, right?
There's too many variables to give a "right" answer here, but assuming you have no ice driving experience, and are on regular tires, I'd reccomend a couple of different things.
A: If there are cars in front you will, without a doubt hit; drive off road (controlled) if possible, or try put your car into the armco/concrete barrier next to the road. This, obviously, to avoid hurting other people, and hopefully slow your car to a halt without much else than material damage. Be aware that the car can "catch" on the armco/concrete and throw you around though, so no sudden movements.
B: If you have no immediate threats (cars stopping in front or coming towards you), slow down, in a manual car, press in the clutchpedal so the tires roll freely, this will prevent the car from spinning. If you have ABS, brake, if not, pump brake, note that the reason for pump braking isn't to stop sooner, but to relieve the brake pressure to steady the car before applying brakes again. You might end up sideways or wrong way at the end of this, so try and pay attention to what's happening behind you too.
As for fun, snow and rough ice (not black ice/polished ice) is far more fun than the slippier kind. Even with Scandinavian winter tires (there's a big difference between Scandinavian spec winter tires and regular winter tires, which has a lot less grip, but are generally approved for higher speeds.) you need a very long piece of road to stop on polished ice. Rough ice and snow is superb fun though, when you know/learn how the car reacts and what you should do. On packed snow, with (Scandinavian) winter tires, you can go the speed limit, as long as you allow enough space to stop, which is a lot.
That said, pretty much the only thing I miss about Norwegian winter, while I'm here in Dallas, is having fun with my car on the snowy roads.
Oh and never never NEVER drive on snow, ice or anything inbetween on anything else than winter tires, it's just plain stupid and dangerous to everyone else on the road.
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Originally Posted by Chadro77
It sucks but it's something that us in the Midwest and Northeast have to deal with. I don't care what anybody tells you, no one is an expert when it comes to driving on ice, Its a crapshoot. I'll take 3 feet of snow over ice any day of the week.
Try and run that by Norwegian truckdrivers. I've worked with them, and their driving skills, especially in horrible conditions, such as Ice is nothing short of astonishing. I've been outrun by truck more than once, and even when it goes wrong, they often manage to control a slide with vehicles weighing up to 46 tonnes fully loaded.
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Originally Posted by jtur88
The first time I drove a front-wheel drive stick-shift car on ice, I discovered something that I'd not thought about. When you step on the brakes without any road traction to keep the wheels turning, the brakes lock the wheels immediately, which kills the engine if its in gear. Now you are skidding with front wheels locked, the engine shut off and no power steering and no power brakes. What fun.
Yeah, you never step on the brakes without stepping on the clutch at the same time when you encounter snow and ice, much of the time, it'll even be safer just pressing in the clutch pedal and coasting over the ice/snow patch, if there's room for it.
You may like your brakes alot but I hardly use them. I let the engine do most of my braking. Engine braking is THE BEST way to stop on slick surfaces.
It's not false at all. What wheel is being driven has no impact on the level of grip the tire has and the level of grip the road has.
I would not describe engine braking as the BEST way to stop. It can help but only if you match the revs on the downchange so you don't lock the wheels.
There's too many variables to give a "right" answer here, but assuming you have no ice driving experience, and are on regular tires, I'd reccomend a couple of different things.
A: If there are cars in front you will, without a doubt hit; drive off road (controlled) if possible, or try put your car into the armco/concrete barrier next to the road. This, obviously, to avoid hurting other people, and hopefully slow your car to a halt without much else than material damage. Be aware that the car can "catch" on the armco/concrete and throw you around though, so no sudden movements.
B: If you have no immediate threats (cars stopping in front or coming towards you), slow down, in a manual car, press in the clutchpedal so the tires roll freely, this will prevent the car from spinning. If you have ABS, brake, if not, pump brake, note that the reason for pump braking isn't to stop sooner, but to relieve the brake pressure to steady the car before applying brakes again. You might end up sideways or wrong way at the end of this, so try and pay attention to what's happening behind you too.
As for fun, snow and rough ice (not black ice/polished ice) is far more fun than the slippier kind. Even with Scandinavian winter tires (there's a big difference between Scandinavian spec winter tires and regular winter tires, which has a lot less grip, but are generally approved for higher speeds.) you need a very long piece of road to stop on polished ice. Rough ice and snow is superb fun though, when you know/learn how the car reacts and what you should do. On packed snow, with (Scandinavian) winter tires, you can go the speed limit, as long as you allow enough space to stop, which is a lot.
That said, pretty much the only thing I miss about Norwegian winter, while I'm here in Dallas, is having fun with my car on the snowy roads.
Oh and never never NEVER drive on snow, ice or anything inbetween on anything else than winter tires, it's just plain stupid and dangerous to everyone else on the road.
Try and run that by Norwegian truckdrivers. I've worked with them, and their driving skills, especially in horrible conditions, such as Ice is nothing short of astonishing. I've been outrun by truck more than once, and even when it goes wrong, they often manage to control a slide with vehicles weighing up to 46 tonnes fully loaded.
Yeah, you never step on the brakes without stepping on the clutch at the same time when you encounter snow and ice, much of the time, it'll even be safer just pressing in the clutch pedal and coasting over the ice/snow patch, if there's room for it.
Thanks TheViking85 Really appreciate the feedback. I may never experience ice but was blown away by the videos of cars out of control. Like you wrote, hitting a wall only pushes the car the other way. That sounds like a lot of fun but I understand the damage & danger to others.
It's not false at all. What wheel is being driven has no impact on the level of grip the tire has and the level of grip the road has.
I would not describe engine braking as the BEST way to stop. It can help but only if you match the revs on the downchange so you don't lock the wheels.
Actually he's even more wrong than that, on ice you shouldn't engine break AT ALL, because it steals some of the friction the tires can use to stay stable and maneuverable. If there's enough traction to engine break, there's certainly enough traction to apply the regular brakes as well, and slow it down much faster.
This is really ice driving 101, and the first thing we're taught on the (oil-skidpan/Icetrack) in drivers-ed.
Press in the clutch and the car will be maneuverable, even in condition and at speeds you'd be sure it would spin out (which it will if you keep the clutch in and the engine spinning the tires)
Actually he's even more wrong than that, on ice you shouldn't engine break AT ALL, because it steals some of the friction the tires can use to stay stable and maneuverable. If there's enough traction to engine break, there's certainly enough traction to apply the regular brakes as well, and slow it down much faster.
This is really ice driving 101, and the first thing we're taught on the (oil-skidpan/Icetrack) in drivers-ed.
Press in the clutch and the car will be maneuverable, even in condition and at speeds you'd be sure it would spin out (which it will if you keep the clutch in and the engine spinning the tires)
100% correct. Engine braking on ice is a huge NO-NO. After living my entire driving life in snow and ice country, and driving everything from rear wheel drive sports cars to 6 axle drive trucks (Think big heavy electrical line trucks) it is weight and good tires that make a difference in stopping and control, NOT how many of those axles are driving. An AWD or 4X4 will slide and spin on ice during a stop just as easy (more so if using the engine to brake) as a 2 wheel drive vehicle.
There's too many variables to give a "right" answer here, but assuming you have no ice driving experience, and are on regular tires, I'd reccomend a couple of different things.
A: If there are cars in front you will, without a doubt hit; drive off road (controlled) if possible, or try put your car into the armco/concrete barrier next to the road. This, obviously, to avoid hurting other people, and hopefully slow your car to a halt without much else than material damage. Be aware that the car can "catch" on the armco/concrete and throw you around though, so no sudden movements.
That would depend. On ice (not icy, but ice) you don't have that much control, especially at speed. Sometimes driving it off the road will cause you to hit a tree. It may be better to rear end the car in front than to crash into an immovable object like that. Think fast before doing this.
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B: If you have no immediate threats (cars stopping in front or coming towards you), slow down, in a manual car, press in the clutchpedal so the tires roll freely, this will prevent the car from spinning. If you have ABS, brake, if not, pump brake, note that the reason for pump braking isn't to stop sooner, but to relieve the brake pressure to steady the car before applying brakes again. You might end up sideways or wrong way at the end of this, so try and pay attention to what's happening behind you too.
As for fun, snow and rough ice (not black ice/polished ice) is far more fun than the slippier kind. Even with Scandinavian winter tires (there's a big difference between Scandinavian spec winter tires and regular winter tires, which has a lot less grip, but are generally approved for higher speeds.) you need a very long piece of road to stop on polished ice. Rough ice and snow is superb fun though, when you know/learn how the car reacts and what you should do. On packed snow, with (Scandinavian) winter tires, you can go the speed limit, as long as you allow enough space to stop, which is a lot.
That said, pretty much the only thing I miss about Norwegian winter, while I'm here in Dallas, is having fun with my car on the snowy roads.
No comment
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Oh and never never NEVER drive on snow, ice or anything inbetween on anything else than winter tires, it's just plain stupid and dangerous to everyone else on the road.
That is not true. It's true in certain places, but not everywhere.
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Try and run that by Norwegian truckdrivers. I've worked with them, and their driving skills, especially in horrible conditions, such as Ice is nothing short of astonishing. I've been outrun by truck more than once, and even when it goes wrong, they often manage to control a slide with vehicles weighing up to 46 tonnes fully loaded.
I have no doubt that they are very skilled, but we are talking about ice, not just icy. I've seen enough overconfident trucks put their entire rig into cornfields to believe that. You'd better go back and ask them again. If they're boasting what you said above, don't believe them! On ice, they will not have the same control that they would have in snow or mere icy conditions. Aski them, they will tell you that. I'm sure they are more skilled than most, but the above comes off as an empty boast to me.
Quote:
Yeah, you never step on the brakes without stepping on the clutch at the same time when you encounter snow and ice, much of the time, it'll even be safer just pressing in the clutch pedal and coasting over the ice/snow patch, if there's room for it.
It's not false at all. What wheel is being driven has no impact on the level of grip the tire has and the level of grip the road has.
I would not describe engine braking as the BEST way to stop. It can help but only if you match the revs on the downchange so you don't lock the wheels.
The wheels don't lock when engine braking... thats the whole point. The only way to really mess it up is to put it in too low of a gear. The reason I say your type of drive train matters is because with a 4x4 (or awd) vehicle, engine braking evenly cuts power and slows down the wheels... it slows down the wheels completely INDEPENDENT to the condition of the road surface.
Wheel brakes on the other hand completely DEPEND on the condition of the road surface... the wheel may be braking nice and easy until it hits something slick and then goes into a lockup.
I have dealt with a fair share tractors and heavy equipment on slippery grades (be it mud or snow/ice), AKA "cluster-F situations", and the only way to safely reach the bottom is by letting the engine and then drivetrain slowly bring me there... complete control. Even a good ABS system doesn't give you much control it just selectively pulses the brakes at high frequency to keep all the wheels at the right speed, so... you better hope you were pointing in the right direction before you slammed on the brakes! Engine brake lets me keep driving, I can actually steer and slow down at the same time. Theres no praying that my ABS system merely stops the vehicle in a straight line just in nick of time.
Another HUGE source for a false sense of security... With ABS, if the brakes are applied on a slick surface and by random chance the wheels do get locked up... the ABS is now effectively tricked since it thinks the vehicle is at a completely stop when in fact your gliding sideways down the road.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheViking85
Actually he's even more wrong than that, on ice you shouldn't engine break AT ALL, because it steals some of the friction the tires can use to stay stable and maneuverable. If there's enough traction to engine break, there's certainly enough traction to apply the regular brakes as well, and slow it down much faster.
How do you even figure that? Engine braking never allows the wheels to completely lock. See above comments.
Last edited by Innovator831021; 12-15-2009 at 06:19 AM..
That would depend. On ice (not icy, but ice) you don't have that much control, especially at speed. Sometimes driving it off the road will cause you to hit a tree. It may be better to rear end the car in front than to crash into an immovable object like that. Think fast before doing this.
Might be safer for you, but what if you push the other car into oncoming or crossing traffic? What if you're misjudging the speed and there are kids in the backseat of the other car? etc. etc. etc. The whole point of planting your car into something other than another car is to not hurt innocent bystanders or other drivers. You should never consider involving other cars (people) in an accident as a possibility, as you can cause serious or even fatal harm to others.
That said, I did specify a controlled "off road excursion", if there's a forest directly next to the road, that's hardly the same thing. Often times there'll still be some space you can get the car off on though, I've been in this situation a couple of times myself, where we had to choose to pretty much steer the car off the road (once into about 4ft of compact snow in the ditch next to the road, and one time more or less jumping into a field, where we got properly stuck) both times there's been elements of risk, lightpoles etc, but it's the better option in most cases, as you won't harm innocent people.
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Originally Posted by dkf747
That is not true. It's true in certain places, but not everywhere.
I don't see how the grip levels of a tire will change on the same condition, only in different geographical places.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkf747
I have no doubt that they are very skilled, but we are talking about ice, not just icy. I've seen enough overconfident trucks put their entire rig into cornfields to believe that. You'd better go back and ask them again. If they're boasting what you said above, don't believe them! On ice, they will not have the same control that they would have in snow or mere icy conditions. Aski them, they will tell you that. I'm sure they are more skilled than most, but the above comes off as an empty boast to me.
I never said they did, but they do have skills far superior to even experienced "winter drivers", part of it is of course also knowing when the grip is entirely gone, and put the truck in a ditch. In my part of the country (Norway) we encounter pure ice conditions a few times a year, and it's certainly hard, sometimes nigh on impossible to drive on, but it is doable, with the right equipment and skills.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTraik
I can actually steer and slow down at the same time. Theres no praying that my ABS system merely stops the vehicle in a straight line just in nick of time.
How do you even figure that? Engine braking never allows the wheels to completely lock. See above comments.
It doesn't allow the wheels to lock, but it does use friction you might need to steer on slowing down. In other words: You can controllably negotiate a maneuver (turning around objects, bend on the road etc, where the ice might be) at higher speeds (which is relevant if you're traveling at normal speed wen hitting the ice, and only have a short amount of time, or no time, to slow the vehicle down beforehand.) with absolutely no drama if you press in the clutch and let the tires roll freely. Then brake, for most people, pump braking will be the best option, as maximum braking (where you try and brake to the very limit of the tires friction) requires an awful lot of practice, to stop the vehicle.
That said, with ABS (at least high end cars) you can turn around objects or negotiate bends on the road even while braking, as the abs and ESP will ensure a non dramatic chain of events.
Point is: If you're on pure ice, which is very very slippery sometimes, even the minor drag that engine braking represent can be enough to lose traction.
I've experienced this myself, when doing repeated tests of this nature (with engine brake (Clutch out), clutch pedal pressed in, braking with ABS and without at various speeds in a controlled environment. We tried negotiating a turn, with and without obstacles (dummies representing people on the road), stopping on a straight stretch and an obstacle avoiding course, but straight road (with moving obstacles/dummies).
With that, and effectively 2 years of daily winter/ice condition driving, it's safe to say that on pure ice engine braking is generally a bad idea, if you have space to stop, the brakes (ABS or pump braking) will stop you more effectively, and if you need to avoid obstacles or negotiate a turn, you will do so much safer with the clutch pedal pressed in.
The wheels don't lock when engine braking... thats the whole point. The only way to really mess it up is to put it in too low of a gear. The reason I say your type of drive train matters is because with a 4x4 (or awd) vehicle, engine braking evenly cuts power and slows down the wheels... it slows down the wheels completely INDEPENDENT to the condition of the road surface.
Which is called sliding. Plain and simple, you do NOT want your tires turning a different speed than the vehicle is moving over a slippery surface. If they are, you have lost control of that vehicle.
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How do you even figure that? Engine braking never allows the wheels to completely lock. See above comments.
Whether they are completely locked or not is a moot point. if they are sliding on the ice or snow (even if turning slowly), you do not have a grip on the surface -- no grip on the surface= no control over the vehicle.
I'm an avid snowmobiler here in MI, so in the winter I'm alway's traveling northbound to go riding. I've got a lot of miles driving in very poor conditions, usually pulling a #7500 26' trailer thats roughly 7-8' tall. When the roads are snow covered I really don't have a problem..just have the 4wd locked in and take your time. The ice is a whole different thing though.. very scary.
A few years ago I got into a prediciment, we were heading on a downhill grade that made a slight turn to the left , and wanted to make a rh turn at the intersection at the bottom. Well I could see the whole lane was one big sheet of ice. I drive a diesel and don't have an engine brake so the truck and trailer started picking up speed. (from 40 to 50 and climbing) So now I could care less about making that rh turn and was consentrated on keeping the speed in check so I could at least stay on the road and follow the slight lh bend. I gently tapped the brake and the truck and trailer started to unsettle and drift.. I reached down and tapped the trailer brake controller and it straighted everything out, so I alternated between trailer brakes only and the truck brakes, then towards the bottom of the hill I spot some open pavement on the other lane. I aimed for that and all was good... I even made the rh turn that I originally wanted to make.
Funny thing is I was completely calm and the whole thing seemed to take forever.. when it was over I looked over at my passengers and they were white as ghosts !
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I've worked with them, and their driving skills, especially in horrible conditions, such as Ice is nothing short of astonishing. I've been outrun by truck more than once, and even when it goes wrong, they often manage to control a slide with vehicles weighing up to 46 tonnes fully loaded.
Really appreciate the feedback. I may never experience ice but was blown away by the videos of cars out of control. Like you wrote, hitting a wall only pushes the car the other way. That sounds like a lot of fun but I understand the damage & danger to others.
