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Funny thing is I was completely calm and the whole thing seemed to take forever.. when it was over I looked over at my passengers and they were white as ghosts !
You get that too eh? Hehe, I've had that a few times, helps you get out of a bad spot.
The fact is the vast majority of people do not have the nerves of steel to deal with ice. Minus the stupidity factor out in the first place, situations that could be saved are all to often not.
I've steared my way out of tailwhips that I thought were gone. Gentle on the break, gentle on the steering, anticapate what the vehicle is going to do next, and gently counter-act it.
I was traveling a back mountain gravel road last year. One lane, covered in snow and ice. You could fall asleep at the wheel and the "tracks" already made would keep you on the road. All of a sudden a SUV comes up over the ridge at an unGodly amount of speed. He put his breaks on and honestly must have slid a football field before coming to rest a few feet from my bumper. There was some room to my left where a vehicle could pull off and go around (his side of the road) and he wanted ME to four wheel it into the snow to go around him? That didn't happen. City people...
Which is called sliding. Plain and simple, you do NOT want your tires turning a different speed than the vehicle is moving over a slippery surface. If they are, you have lost control of that vehicle.
Whether they are completely locked or not is a moot point. if they are sliding on the ice or snow (even if turning slowly), you do not have a grip on the surface -- no grip on the surface= no control over the vehicle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheViking85
Might be safer for you, but what if you push the other car into oncoming or crossing traffic? What if you're misjudging the speed and there are kids in the backseat of the other car? etc. etc. etc. The whole point of planting your car into something other than another car is to not hurt innocent bystanders or other drivers. You should never consider involving other cars (people) in an accident as a possibility, as you can cause serious or even fatal harm to others.
That said, I did specify a controlled "off road excursion", if there's a forest directly next to the road, that's hardly the same thing. Often times there'll still be some space you can get the car off on though, I've been in this situation a couple of times myself, where we had to choose to pretty much steer the car off the road (once into about 4ft of compact snow in the ditch next to the road, and one time more or less jumping into a field, where we got properly stuck) both times there's been elements of risk, lightpoles etc, but it's the better option in most cases, as you won't harm innocent people.
I don't see how the grip levels of a tire will change on the same condition, only in different geographical places.
I never said they did, but they do have skills far superior to even experienced "winter drivers", part of it is of course also knowing when the grip is entirely gone, and put the truck in a ditch. In my part of the country (Norway) we encounter pure ice conditions a few times a year, and it's certainly hard, sometimes nigh on impossible to drive on, but it is doable, with the right equipment and skills.
It doesn't allow the wheels to lock, but it does use friction you might need to steer on slowing down. In other words: You can controllably negotiate a maneuver (turning around objects, bend on the road etc, where the ice might be) at higher speeds (which is relevant if you're traveling at normal speed wen hitting the ice, and only have a short amount of time, or no time, to slow the vehicle down beforehand.) with absolutely no drama if you press in the clutch and let the tires roll freely. Then brake, for most people, pump braking will be the best option, as maximum braking (where you try and brake to the very limit of the tires friction) requires an awful lot of practice, to stop the vehicle.
That said, with ABS (at least high end cars) you can turn around objects or negotiate bends on the road even while braking, as the abs and ESP will ensure a non dramatic chain of events.
Point is: If you're on pure ice, which is very very slippery sometimes, even the minor drag that engine braking represent can be enough to lose traction.
I've experienced this myself, when doing repeated tests of this nature (with engine brake (Clutch out), clutch pedal pressed in, braking with ABS and without at various speeds in a controlled environment. We tried negotiating a turn, with and without obstacles (dummies representing people on the road), stopping on a straight stretch and an obstacle avoiding course, but straight road (with moving obstacles/dummies).
With that, and effectively 2 years of daily winter/ice condition driving, it's safe to say that on pure ice engine braking is generally a bad idea, if you have space to stop, the brakes (ABS or pump braking) will stop you more effectively, and if you need to avoid obstacles or negotiate a turn, you will do so much safer with the clutch pedal pressed in.
Your missing the forest for the trees here.
Approaching something which requires you to stop the vehicle while on a slick surface, the best way to SLOW THE VEHICLE DOWN is by engine braking. It gives you a hundred times more control over the vehicle than applying the wheel brakes. Using wheel brakes on a slick surface gives you an extremely narrow window of usable caliper pressure. Narrow enough that you can't stay within it.
I have dealt with all the systems, all the drivetrains and im in one the snowiest cities in the nation... thats my experience.
The wheels don't lock when engine braking... thats the whole point. The only way to really mess it up is to put it in too low of a gear. The reason I say your type of drive train matters is because with a 4x4 (or awd) vehicle, engine braking evenly cuts power and slows down the wheels... it slows down the wheels completely INDEPENDENT to the condition of the road surface.
Wheel brakes on the other hand completely DEPEND on the condition of the road surface... the wheel may be braking nice and easy until it hits something slick and then goes into a lockup.
I have dealt with a fair share tractors and heavy equipment on slippery grades (be it mud or snow/ice), AKA "cluster-F situations", and the only way to safely reach the bottom is by letting the engine and then drivetrain slowly bring me there... complete control. Even a good ABS system doesn't give you much control it just selectively pulses the brakes at high frequency to keep all the wheels at the right speed, so... you better hope you were pointing in the right direction before you slammed on the brakes! Engine brake lets me keep driving, I can actually steer and slow down at the same time. Theres no praying that my ABS system merely stops the vehicle in a straight line just in nick of time.
Another HUGE source for a false sense of security... With ABS, if the brakes are applied on a slick surface and by random chance the wheels do get locked up... the ABS is now effectively tricked since it thinks the vehicle is at a completely stop when in fact your gliding sideways down the road.
How do you even figure that? Engine braking never allows the wheels to completely lock. See above comments.
Yes they will lock if you downshift and don't match the revs on the downchange. I think you missed that part completely.
Sure I have used engine braking in places where I can anticipate before descending a hill or such.
However we are talking about making panic stops and as most people will be traveling in the highest gear possible for whatever speed they are doing(say 5th gear at 65mph) they are not going to have time to slam it down a gear, match the engine and tranny on the downchange to avoid locking the wheels and also combine all this with giving it some braking AND then slowing to a stop. Us race car drivers can manage that if need be but your average driver doesn't stand a chance.
When making a panic stop we need to do so in the shortest distance possible in the least complicated way possible.
It used to be ABS would get confused by ice at times, however the newer systems have negated a lot of that.
Approaching something which requires you to stop the vehicle while on a slick surface, the best way to SLOW THE VEHICLE DOWN is by engine braking. It gives you a hundred times more control over the vehicle than applying the wheel brakes. Using wheel brakes on a slick surface gives you an extremely narrow window of usable caliper pressure. Narrow enough that you can't stay within it.
I have dealt with all the systems, all the drivetrains and im in one the snowiest cities in the nation... thats my experience.
Snow is something entirely different than ice. And on anything part from shiny polished ice, you're good with brakes. You'll stop a hell of a lot faster, that's for sure.
As far as I could understand from the OP, the issue here wasn't snow and roughed up ice, but polished/black ice. Try and motor break on that and you're just lucky if it goes well, OR the conditions were better than they seemed. The only thing that's guaranteed to work in worst case conditions, is engage clutch and coast, preferably into a pile of snow.
And well, I live in one of the snowier countries in the world and that's not only my experience, but also what the professionals teach you during the ice track driving course.
A: If there are cars in front you will, without a doubt hit; drive off road (controlled) if possible, or try put your car into the armco/concrete barrier next to the road. This, obviously, to avoid hurting other people, and hopefully slow your car to a halt without much else than material damage. Be aware that the car can "catch" on the armco/concrete and throw you around though, so no sudden movements.
Would not advise that at all. The car can catch on many things, sudden movements or not.
Instead what I would say is "hands and feet follow the eyes".
By looking where we want to end up, our hands and feet follow. In panic type situations one major issue is target fixation. People will stare at what they don't want to hit and they will basically drive right into it.
For all the vast array of driving techniques I teach, if there is one thing I want people to take away is how to use their eyes. Even if they forget this or that, if they always remember to look at where they want to go, subconsciously their hands and feet will follow.
Wouldn't advise going off the road. Many roads do not have armco or concrete walls and even if they do there is no guarantee it will hold the weight of your car. I've seen plenty of armco fail due to insufficient mounting. Most roads are crowned as well so you put yourself in a change of getting bounced back into traffic or into opposing traffic(really not good) or subjecting yourself to a rollover.
We see this often with deer strikes. Instead of slowing as much as possible and then striking deer at a lower speed and maybe at a better angle, people panic, overcorrect on the steering and drive right off the road into a rollover and boom boom boom, dead.
Every situation is different, but I'd rather teach the driver to first slow the vehicle as much as possible, use their eyes to identify the best way out and take it. I don't teach them to look at the side of the road as their first way out.
Approaching something which requires you to stop the vehicle while on a slick surface, the best way to SLOW THE VEHICLE DOWN is by engine braking. It gives you a hundred times more control over the vehicle than applying the wheel brakes. Using wheel brakes on a slick surface gives you an extremely narrow window of usable caliper pressure. Narrow enough that you can't stay within it.
I have dealt with all the systems, all the drivetrains and im in one the snowiest cities in the nation... thats my experience.
I'm not missing the point at all. Using the engine to break is NOT better. Been driving in snow and ice my whole life in places that would make somebody from Rochester, NY **** themselves. From Northern Michigan, to 20 years in the Caribou, ME area. Rochester, NY gets on average 90" of snow a year, that is hardly one of the snowiest places in the US. Marquette, MI; Sault Ste Marie, MI; Gaylord, MI; Petoskey, MI; Caribou, ME; Limestone, ME: Those are the majority of my winter driving experience locations.
I also have driven every type drive train you can think of and some most will never have a chance to drive. In NONE of the road legal ones, is using the engine to break the preferred method. Only one that it works well on is a DMC groomer with the tiller down that I have driven. This particular model actually:
http://www.chameleoninc.com/snowcats/DMC3700Front.jpg (broken link)
I'm not missing the point at all. Using the engine to break is NOT better. Been driving in snow and ice my whole life in places that would make somebody from Rochester, NY **** themselves. From Northern Michigan, to 20 years in the Caribou, ME area. Rochester, NY gets on average 90" of snow a year, that is hardly one of the snowiest places in the US. Marquette, MI; Sault Ste Marie, MI; Gaylord, MI; Petoskey, MI; Caribou, ME; Limestone, ME: Those are the majority of my winter driving experience locations.
I also have driven every type drive train you can think of and some most will never have a chance to drive. In NONE of the road legal ones, is using the engine to break the preferred method. Only one that it works well on is a DMC groomer with the tiller down that I have driven. This particular model actually:
Similar amounts of snow per month, though you have to deal with it for more of the year. Thats a pretty sweet rig!
I'm not missing the point at all. Using the engine to break is NOT better.
It doesn't look like your going to convince him, even though your right.
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