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Job banks, over emphasis on seniority are two that come to mind immediately. Resistance to automation is another.
Job banks are going down the tubes. Seniority protects workers from arbitrary and unjust assignments and from nepotism. Many unions don't have seniority rules.
I've never seen resistance to automation. Can you name a specific instance?
Job banks are going down the tubes. Seniority protects workers from arbitrary and unjust assignments and from nepotism. Many unions don't have seniority rules.
I've never seen resistance to automation. Can you name a specific instance?
Seniority protects older, less capable, and mediocre workers. It reduces the ability of a worker to earn more pay based on their own quality and work ethic.
Nepotism is easy to prevent. It should have nothing to do with seniority.
I know that union workers at the General Dynamics plant in Fort Worth repeatedly sabotaged automation equipment designed to speed the assembly of F16s. The equipment of course would have improved productivity and eliminated some jobs.
Seniority protects older, less capable, and mediocre workers. It reduces the ability of a worker to earn more pay based on their own quality and work ethic.
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Since the union workplaces that have seniority rules are usually also the highest paying your assertion doesn't wash. Of course a fella go work non union and be paid less for his own quality and work ethic. That's the rub; the non union places that claim to reward merit pay less. One might reasonably draw the conclusion that merit has no merit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffdano
Nepotism is easy to prevent. It should have nothing to do with seniority.
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Actually nepotism is very hard to prevent, even in unionized places. Seniority guards against nepotism and favoritism. It's called wanting to be treated justly. Justice is good, no?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffdano
I know that union workers at the General Dynamics plant in Fort Worth repeatedly sabotaged automation equipment designed to speed the assembly of F16s. The equipment of course would have improved productivity and eliminated some jobs.
OK. I wonder if non-union guys do the same thing. They must want to protect their jobs.
An organization that most likely couldn't operate without special government protection is parasitic. The rubble that used to be any major industrial city in the U.S. is testament to that fact.
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Ah, you mean parasites like corporations since they can't exist without government protection and their decisions to build poor products and ship jobs overseas (from non union areas as well as union ones) have ruined many industrial cities and our industrial economy?
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Originally Posted by Drover
Collective bargaining hampers individual initiative because it's not rewarded, and it's more difficult for companies to cull the deadweight from its labor pool. Seniority is rewarded, but seniority is not synonymous with productivity. When you get paid the same whether you're a workhorse or a loafer, you provide an incentive for the workhorses to go somewhere where their pay is commensurate with their output and not directly tied to everyone else's output, and you provide an incentive for the loafer to stick around.
Since the highest paying places are usually union there's no incentive for the worker with initiative to leave such a place. Note that many businesses pull their management from the ranks of the unionized workers so there are incentives to excell. And did you know that many people excell just because it pleases them to do so? Yes, it's true.
Christ knows that union wages in Chicago provide plenty of incentive for guys from Texas and the South to boom up here and work turnarounds; you never see northerners booming south.
As for loafers; well it's management's job to get rid of them. Many outsiders are surprised to find out out how easy it is to fire a deadbeat in a union shop, I know, I was often a steward. Once management gets up the gumption that is; it's surprising how pussified modern management often is, even in construction.
In any event it's the purpose of any economic entity, including unions, to get as much as it can while giving as little as it can. That's called business. That some unions make poor decisions is no more a reason to be against unions in general than it is be to be against business in general because some businesses make poor decisions.
Of course, one of those poor business decisions was setting up shop in places where unions have such heavy sway over the workforce and government policy. Which is why they stopped doing that. But of course, the unions are blameless in the whole situation. Typical union mentality -- everyone's fault but theirs.
Of course, one of those poor business decisions was setting up shop in places where unions have such heavy sway over the workforce and government policy. Which is why they stopped doing that. But of course, the unions are blameless in the whole situation. Typical union mentality -- everyone's fault but theirs.
The businesses were there before the unions existed. Get your history right before you worry about your theory. Note that many businesses that are unionized are doing well as are many nations that are heavily unionized. Where does that fit into your theory?
I don't think I said unions were blameless, I said they like business can make bad decisions. You're being petulant.
Jump in your car and come down to the Weathermark and we'll hash this out; nothing else going on tonight.
^^ Sorry, I misread "unions" as "businesses." But the problem isn't just a couple poor business decisions but a fundamentally flawed system. Otherwise the disinvestment in Northern cities and capital flight to the South and to other nations wouldn't have been so systemic. Foreign companies in heavily unionized nations do well by doing the exact same thing as companies every other nation: move operations whenever possible to wherever productivity is highest relative to cost, including costs of reimportation (if it wasn't originally for export), extra overhead in managing over a distance often in a different language, etc. You think Renault builds all its cars in France?
And no, I won't be stopping by the Weathermark, I've got stuff to do tomorrow. Like graduate. Family coming into to town too. I should be in bed right now but just like practically every night insomnia is winning the battle.
I'm not looking forward to returning to the 9-5 grind.
Since the union workplaces that have seniority rules are usually also the highest paying your assertion doesn't wash. Of course a fella go work non union and be paid less for his own quality and work ethic. That's the rub; the non union places that claim to reward merit pay less. One might reasonably draw the conclusion that merit has no merit.
Actually nepotism is very hard to prevent, even in unionized places. Seniority guards against nepotism and favoritism. It's called wanting to be treated justly. Justice is good, no?
OK. I wonder if non-union guys do the same thing. They must want to protect their jobs.
Nepotism doesn't exist in any major degree in professional (e.g. college degree) work. Simple rules to prohibit any person from supervision, appraisal, roles of any relative (by blood or marriage) takes care of it.
Union shops may pay more - but they may also pay too much. Their negotiated contracts (for wages and benefits) prevent the movement of wages according to economic conditions. The UAW of course is the poster child for this.
Every worker would rather be paid more. But that doesn't mean they are willing to take the negatives of the union economy. I don't think those autoworkers in Tennessee, Alabama, and Ohio (not far away) are rushing to move to Michigan for a coveted UAW job.
Oh - those job banks are going away - but not because the unions thought it was a good idea. They are going away because the system was crashing all around them. They had to.
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