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It seems Pete Rose's name will not be appearing on any future Hall ballots, at least not anytime soon. New MLB Commissioner Rob Manfred has given the thumbs down to lifting Rose's permanent ban.
Manfred said.. What I was thinking if not what I said before.. The Hall of Fame should be totally separate from the lifetime ban from baseball.
He considers it (and I would agree with this) too dangerous to allow Rose to be a part of baseball. Lifting the permanently ineligible ban would allow him to work in a front office, or be a manager/coach again.. Which, I actually do agree would be a bad thing.
But, with the HoF rules, keeping him on that list, keeps him out of the Hall.
A nice 'middle ground' would be for MLB to remove him from the 'permanently ineligible' list and give him a 40 year suspension. Which would allow him in to the HoF, but prevent him from ever participating actively in baseball.
I think you have to look, as you said, at everything. Look at his '96 season stats.
26 starts, 9-10 record with a 3.19 ERA. and 8 complete games.
He plays on a team that wins more than 67 games.. That record could easily sway more towards 15-4 or similar.
1997, he is 17-11 with a 2.97 ERA and led the league in strikeouts. On a team that won 68 games.
As for the Cy Young.. 3 times he finished second in balloting. Twice behind Randy Johnson and once behind Johan Santana.
As for his ERA.. Remember, his prime years were also the hitter years. When home runs were way up. Tom Glavine has a mid 3's ERA as well.
Numbers aren't everything.. After all.. Noone is seriously talking about Jamie Moyer making the Hall, even though he's just shy of the magical 300 wins.
You could say if any pitcher was on a different team they could have won more but he could also have won more if he had pitched better. That did not happen and the we have to take the numbers at face value. Two of the years he had a second place CY Young finish he had a 3.23 and 3.26 ERA were pretty average. In 2004 11 pitchers had better ERA's them him and in 2002 Schilling was 10th in the NL in ERA. In 1996 he was 7th in the NL in ERA. You can not just forget all the bad years he had.
You could say if any pitcher was on a different team they could have won more but he could also have won more if he had pitched better. That did not happen and the we have to take the numbers at face value. Two of the years he had a second place CY Young finish he had a 3.23 and 3.26 ERA were pretty average. In 2004 11 pitchers had better ERA's them him and in 2002 Schilling was 10th in the NL in ERA. In 1996 he was 7th in the NL in ERA. You can not just forget all the bad years he had.
A 3.23 and 3.26 ERA during the steroid era were not average by any stretch. That 3.26 ERA in 2004 was the 2nd best ERA by a starting pitcher in all of the American League. The average ERA that year was 4.46 for all of baseball.
The year Schilling had a 3.23 ERA (2002 with Arizona), the average ERA that year in MLB was 4.28. My lord, the guy threw 259 innings in the 2002 regular season and had 316 Ks to only 33 walks. 33 walks in 259 innings is unbelievable. The guy had a 0.968 WHIP that year in the steroid era (which, by the way, led the NL in WHIP that year).
Needless to say, those were not average years by any stretch but elite, ace-type years.
Manfred said.. What I was thinking if not what I said before.. The Hall of Fame should be totally separate from the lifetime ban from baseball.
He considers it (and I would agree with this) too dangerous to allow Rose to be a part of baseball. Lifting the permanently ineligible ban would allow him to work in a front office, or be a manager/coach again.. Which, I actually do agree would be a bad thing.
But, with the HoF rules, keeping him on that list, keeps him out of the Hall.
A nice 'middle ground' would be for MLB to remove him from the 'permanently ineligible' list and give him a 40 year suspension. Which would allow him in to the HoF, but prevent him from ever participating actively in baseball.
My impression is that MLB doesn't have any interest in helping Rose in any manner because they are unable to detect any change in Rose's character. Pete still does a number of things which annoy them. Among the offenses is that each year when the HoF induction ceremonies are held, Rose shows up in Cooperstown and hustles bucks at a private autograph show. Rose stays away from the ML events in keeping with his ban, but MLB sees it as Rose trying to upstage the ceremonies with a commercial for himself.
MLB has the memory of Rose lying to their faces when presented with the charges in the Dowd report, and a decade and a half of continued denials and character assassination of his accusers before finally 'fessing up. And when he did come clean, it was another cheap hustle, a scheme to make money selling books.
Worse, Rose makes his home in Las Vegas, still hangs out with seedy types, and still bets on baseball.
I've read that the ML officials who have dealt with Rose report that he remains at all times a cocky, defiant sort who shows not the slightest remorse for his past behavior.
I don't look for MLB to be going out of its way to make Hall induction possible for Pete.
Schilling certainly should go in.. I mean, if we're keeping people out because they're a-holes.. Ty Cobb. Enough said right there.
Don't believe all the bad stuff you read about Ty Cobb. He wasn't the vicious racist he was made out to be and he was actually a generous man. Never sharpened his spikes, either.
His funeral was private, his death wasn't ignored. There were people lined up for blocks to pay their respects.
Read "Ty Cobb" by Charles Alexander. Al Stump was full of crap.
Probably the best place to look for who is eligible.
New names that have a shot at getting in.. Griffey and Hoffman.
Final year - Alan Trammell, Mark McGuire (Trammell's 15th year, McGuire's 10th.. Eligibility is 10 years now, Trammell and Lee Smith are grandfathered at 15 years)
If I had to bet.. I'm going to call 2 names get in and a wild card..
Griffey.. He's a first ballot HOF, though, it will be very close. Not a real high total, I think he just sneaks in. 77-80%.
Piazza makes it this year, again, very close.. 75-78%
And.. They're going to put a closer in.. I don't think Hoffman makes it on first ballot, so.. I'm going with Lee Smith. I think he gets a bump being in his 14th year and might just clear the threshold. But.. The new selection process might hurt him. Since they've eliminated voters who haven't covered the sport in 10 years.. That's really going to hurt some of the older players who are eligible.
Schilling's total climbs, but he's still well short. He'll get in, but another 4-5 years before he does. His problem is that he played on crappy teams and there's the perception that he was 'only' a good playoff pitcher. Phillies fans know that some of those years he was 15-11, he'd have been 24-4 or so if he had been on a good team.
Raines and McGriff.. McGriff was a great player, I just think he's short of HOF material. Raines, has a case. Neither make it this year.. I just think Raines has a shot down the road.
2017 class just sucks. So, it's possible that Piazza falls back to be the 'big name' inductee next year.
Piazza, like Jeff Bagwell, although never indicted, were obviously 'juiced' up on something. I don't see either getting in - ever. Schilling had a few HOF seasons and was a HOF post season pitcher, but he's not a true HOFer.
The "If (insert players name here) was on a better team, he would have done this ..." excuse is lame. Good pitchers win. Just ask Fergie Jenkins, Gaylord Perry, Robin Roberts, Juan Marichal and many others. Steve Carlton won 27 games for a Phillies team that won only 59 in 1972.
Griffey Jr and Hoffman get in.
Don't believe all the bad stuff you read about Ty Cobb. He wasn't the vicious racist he was made out to be and he was actually a generous man..
Actually Cobb was vicious and was a racist. However, he wasn't especially those things in an era where most people held racial attitudes which have subsequently fallen from favor.
Cobb was from Georgia and grew up in a racist atmosphere, he adopted the regional attitudes of his environment. In the famous incident where Cobb was suspended for going into the stands and attacking a fan, what triggered Cobb's temper that day was that the fan had called him a n---er lover. Cobb endured all kinds of abuse from fans in those days but it is telling that what made him crack was being charged with liking black people.
In correcting the image of Cobb as a standout racist, we should not go too far in trying to reform him into something he was not.
Actually Cobb was vicious and was a racist. However, he wasn't especially those things in an era where most people held racial attitudes which have subsequently fallen from favor.
Cobb was from Georgia and grew up in a racist atmosphere, he adopted the regional attitudes of his environment. In the famous incident where Cobb was suspended for going into the stands and attacking a fan, what triggered Cobb's temper that day was that the fan had called him a n---er lover. Cobb endured all kinds of abuse from fans in those days but it is telling that what made him crack was being charged with liking black people.
In correcting the image of Cobb as a standout racist, we should not go too far in trying to reform him into something he was not.
He had a black kid as some sort of assistant, so I don't think he could have been that racist. And it's a fact that he liked Jackie Robinson and his style of play.
He also had a black maid growing up that he loved.
And as far as him being 'vicious' - Yes, but he wasn't a bully and he didn't go looking for fights, he was usually provoked. Most all the tough guys I knew in my life didn't fight until provoked. Cobb was no different.
Al Stump was a known liar.
He also had a black maid growing up that he loved.
.
I was born into the pre Civil Rights South. My grandmother had a black maid named Bertha. One year at Thanksgiving dinner which Bertha had prepared, my grandmother was moved to deliver a speech of praise about Bertha. She was loyal, she was hard working, she didn't steal anything. Then my grandmother lowered her voice to conspirator's level and added..."..and best of all, she knows her place. "
One place in particular was the back seat of my grandmother's car. Sometimes she would give Bertha a ride home, or sometimes pick her up in the morning. Bertha was always relegated to the backseat. I found it fascinating that my grandmother preferred radiating the image of her chauffeuring a black woman around in her car, to anyone getting the impression that they were friends, such as Bertha sitting up front with my grandmother might have suggested.
My point in all this is that one may love one's black maid, while by no means being disqualified from the ranks of racists.
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