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Yeah, I'm just singling him out as a specific one-on-one guy the knicks could throw at Lebron as opposed to Starks etc.
Remember, you could hand check but the offensive player could be rough too and Lebron would beat up on starks.
Starks is but one guy you could throw at Lebron, in an attempt to cut off his penetration( in the same way OKC uses a guy like Selfolosha,who like Starks isn't a physical match for Lebron but plays that pesky, aggressive in your face D). The Knicks had a variety of perimeter defenders to throw at you, all with different attributes and tendencies, and if you made it past them you had Ewing and Oakley waiting at the rim to take your head off. That Knicks team, to this day, is one of the most bruising defensive clubs I've ever seen.
Location: Born & Raised DC > Carolinas > Seattle > Denver
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As much as I like don't like Lebron, I have to acknowledge thie OP's point. Bron never had a Phil Jackson, and he never had a Pippen or a Shaq.
But now that he's got Wade and Bosh, if he doesn't produce this year, people might begin to question his "greatness," when a big chunk of being great is being able to finish out and win that ring.
Interesting fact about Lebron James. Did you know that IF (i know its not over yet), but if the Heat lose this series, Lebron James would be one of only TWO players IN NBA HISTORY to have made 3 finals and not win a ring. The other? Karl Malone. 2 with Utah, and 1 as an old man with the Lakers. That's a pretty bad list to be a part of...
As much as I like don't like Lebron, I have to acknowledge thie OP's point. Bron never had a Phil Jackson, and he never had a Pippen or a Shaq.
But now that he's got Wade and Bosh, if he doesn't produce this year, people might begin to question his "greatness," when a big chunk of being great is being able to finish out and win that ring.
Interesting fact about Lebron James. Did you know that IF (i know its not over yet), but if the Heat lose this series, Lebron James would be one of only TWO players IN NBA HISTORY to have made 3 finals and not win a ring. The other? Karl Malone. 2 with Utah, and 1 as an old man with the Lakers. That's a pretty bad list to be a part of...
At one point( 2-3 seasons ago) you could have made the argument that he was top 2, at worst top 3. Many people felt he should have won MVP in 2009, and not one of those 'best player on the best team' type MVP seasons.
idk...
winning an MVP is really not a good indication of the best player in the league. It just recongnizes a great season. So I feel you on it not being a "best player on the best team" type of seasons.
But...
I don't see how anyone can be objective and still say Wade is top 2 in any year when Lebron, Kobe, and Duncan played in their prime.
That's more of what I am getting at... Had those guys not played in 2009 then you have case. And yes I think top 3-5 is reasonable for Wade. But I would never put him higher than 4 simply because he played in the era with those guys above. And Now Durant replaces Duncan... so he's still no higher than 4.
I'm not trying to slight Wade in any way... I think he is a hell of player. And I'm a fan. Just being objective. Saying he's the 4th best is not a negative.
Pippen was highly regarded, maybe not top 2 since you have guys like Olajuwon, Malone, Robinson, Barkley etc. roaming about....but certainly top 5-10 is easily defensible.
Good points... But I could argue for Pippen over them...
Robinson... lack of winning and or dominance during that era makes him the easiest to pull out of this list.
As far as Olajuwon... he was really only a beast for 4 years of his career (93 - 96) and mainly those 2 years he won the NBA championships. But this is why I say Pippen was the 2nd best during the Bulls championships... so it would exclude those 2 years of Olajuwon dominating.
Malone and Barkley were formidable though. More Malone than Barkley because of Barkley's inconsistency at times. Malone was clockwork though. But depending on what you value it can easily be argued that Pippen was better than either... He was definitely a better all around player. Malone couldnt bring the ball up or play D. And Barkley wasn't a good defender. Pippen didnt score like those guys but he was a lock down defender. So it just depends on what you value.
In my value scale... Only Jordan was higher than Pippen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mathguy
The Bulls had some great squads but I want to see someone trying to support the OP's point actually make a roster comparison. The 72-win season....yeah....clearly more talent but the first championship I think it's probably about even with Miami.
I'm with you... It's funny how people try to say those guys were good now. That's laughable.
winning an MVP is really not a good indication of the best player in the league. It just recongnizes a great season. So I feel you on it not being a "best player on the best team" type of seasons.
But...
I don't see how anyone can be objective and still say Wade is top 2 in any year when Lebron, Kobe, and Duncan played in their prime.
That's more of what I am getting at... Had those guys not played in 2009 then you have case. And yes I think top 3-5 is reasonable for Wade. But I would never put him higher than 4 simply because he played in the era with those guys above. And Now Durant replaces Duncan... so he's still no higher than 4.
I'm not trying to slight Wade in any way... I think he is a hell of player. And I'm a fan. Just being objective. Saying he's the 4th best is not a negative.
Back in 2009, the season when he put up 30 points, 7.5 assists and 5 rebounds on high shooting percentages, I thought he had a credible case for top 2( with Lebron). Kobe was just 'slightly' past his peak, Duncan was certainly not a top 5 player at that point. Durant wasn't what he is now....so yeah that one season in 2009 is what I'm referring to. I think on the whole though, he's been a top 5 player for the majority of his career.
Back in 2009, the season when he put up 30 points, 7.5 assists and 5 rebounds on high shooting percentages, I thought he had a credible case for top 2( with Lebron). Kobe was just 'slightly' past his peak, Duncan was certainly not a top 5 player at that point. Durant wasn't what he is now....so yeah that one season in 2009 is what I'm referring to. I think on the whole though, he's been a top 5 player for the majority of his career.
Gotcha... that one year is certainly the case.
My only rebuttal (and I am only saying this to keep the discussion going, so its picky) would be that Wade was not winning... so Kobe's down stats were sacraficed because he was winning. In the years when Kobe was not winning he put up a higher average than Wade did in 2009 ('05 and '06). And even in 2009 Kobe still avg 27 (only 3 pts lower than Wade) and won a title. That would still put him above Wade even in that one year...
The best I can give him is Lebron-1, Kobe-2a, Wade-2b...
Good points... But I could argue for Pippen over them...
Robinson... lack of winning and or dominance during that era makes him the easiest to pull out of this list.
As far as Olajuwon... he was really only a beast for 4 years of his career (93 - 96) and mainly those 2 years he won the NBA championships. But this is why I say Pippen was the 2nd best during the Bulls championships... so it would exclude those 2 years of Olajuwon dominating.
Malone and Barkley were formidable though. More Malone than Barkley because of Barkley's inconsistency at times. Malone was clockwork though. But depending on what you value it can easily be argued that Pippen was better than either... He was definitely a better all around player. Malone couldnt bring the ball up or play D. And Barkley wasn't a good defender. Pippen didnt score like those guys but he was a lock down defender. So it just depends on what you value.
In my value scale... Only Jordan was higher than Pippen.
I'm with you... It's funny how people try to say those guys were good now. That's laughable.
Yeah, a lot of stuff is debatable....except that 72 win team. Anybody thinking that this years Heat squad wouldn't get their butts spanked by them has had a few too many puffs on the crack pipe.
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