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The Lebron apologists want dearly for Lebron to be vastly superior to Larry Bird, but he just isnt. They are more similar than different. Bird also being the better shooter, rebounder and passer (regardless of stat)
Negative on the rebounding and passing...
@Eddie, I'll give you that the eras were equally competitive....
It makes no sense to compare by age. Starting at age 23, isn't equal because each player doesn't have the same experience, records or accolades. How does this even make sense to you? Basically, Lebron's first four seasons are unimportant? When comparing players, they are best compared on years played--Rookie Year, Year 2, Year 3, etc. That is as equal footing as it gets, as both players, in any comparison, have the same starting base...
The way you choose to draw the lines is why Lebron will never be greater than anybody, to yourself and guys who think like you. You're not giving Lebron and equal playing field of comparison. His age 23 season, he was a 5-year veteran, a scoring champion, and ascended into a Top 2 player. Actually, how is it fair to Bird to compare on ages? Lebron is gonna be the better player in most years by age (Age 24, Age 25, etc). How does this even make sense to you?
MVP VOTING
Wins: James 4, Bird 3
Top 5: James 11 (06-16), Bird 9 (80-88)
Top 3: James 9 (06, 09-16), Bird 8 (81-88)
Top 2: Bird 7 (81-86, 88), James 6 (06, 09-10, 12-14)
So Bird has more second-place finishes than Lebron. Is that what you're arguing? Lololol...otherwise, Lebron sweeps him, and regardless, Lebron has more MVPs anyway, so this is moot. Through 13 years, Lebron has been the consensus better player overall...But Larry Bird was Second Place more times!
You're right, Bird came in second to some legit Top 5 players. In Lebron's defense, he lost to Dirk (Top 20 all-time; top 5 PF), he lost to Kobe (Top 20 all-time, Top 5 SG), he lost to Curry (greatest shooter ever; 2016 one of greatest regular seasons ever). Also, lets not forget, he lost to Rose ('11) and Durant ('14), and it is widely acknowledged that James should have won it in at least one, if not both, of those years. Just like Jordan, Lebron was robbed of 1-2 MVPs, and everybody knows it...
Dirk and Kobe's primes intersected with Lebron. He can't help that he's younger than them, though. I can agree, though, that when Lebron hit his stride, they were at the end of their primes (so we're the other guys you mentioned). But once again, you like to pretend there is no competition, like the 2010s generation isn't gonna have HOF'ers. Durant, Westbrook, Curry, just for starters, this is elite HOF talent he's had to play against. You can't diminish that...
Lebron's championships came when the "Comeback" Spurs were still a threat (Duncan may have been over the hill, but his team's in the 2010s were contenders every year). He's won in the same era as the record-setting Warriors, he's won in OKC's Durant/Westbrook prime years, he's won when the Clippers have been preseason favorites this decade, he outlasted some elite Bulls and Pacers teams this decade--let's not forget that the Bulls and Pacers were favorites to win the East, and win it all, several years. He killed the Piston's Eastern Conference reign in '07. He killed the Boston Big 3 era in '11. I think it's funny how we overlook that Lebron has accomplished and overcome some huge obstacles. He's beaten teams better than his, he's ended eras, and we still question him?
And this bears mentioning once again: he beat the '13 Spurs and the '16 Warriors, two of the best teams ever. '13 Spurs one of greatest playoff teams ever, '16 Warriors one of greatest regular season teams ever. When he lost, he lost to Pistons mini-dynasty (1-1 Finals, 04-07); he lost to Big 3 Boston mini dynasty (1-1 Finals, 08-11). He went 1-1 against the "Comeback" Spurs (people thought Spurs were too old; hadn't been to Finals in 6 years yet returned to back-to-backs). He went 1-1 versus record setting Warriors in 15-16. What more do you want? Should he go undefeated against those teams? We don't kill Bird for losing to Showtime!
Lebron's biggest sin is how he played in 2011 Finals. He deserves it; I can't protect him there. Bird never had such a choke, Bird wins that one fair and square. Otherwise, Lebron lines up well, and beats Bird in 'most' categories across the board. Even the difficulty of teams he's had to
play has been at worst equal to the difficulty Bird had. Stop fronting...
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The Lebron apologists want dearly for Lebron to be vastly superior to Larry Bird, but he just isnt. They are more similar than different. Bird also being the better shooter, rebounder and passer (regardless of stat)
Lebron apologists? Really? Is that still a thing?
At this point, Lebron could end his career after this season and basically be 1a and 1b with Bird at worse. At best, he plays 4-8 more years and clinches his legacy as the best SF just like Jordan as the best SG.
With regards to league MVPs, I'm wondering now if we start to see Lebron win them again. My thinking is even if Curry has a phenomenal regular season again, I think he will get snubbed by some voters with the fresh memory of him failing in this years Finals and also not even looking great in the previous years Finals. Lebron's biggest challenge will probably come from some of the younger guys.
Barring a huge year from lebron, or a drastic fall off for Irving I think Irving hurts his chances of winning mvp.
it's gonna be kawhi Leonard's year though, just wait and see
Could be. Voters do seem to like to try to spread it out to newcomers. Also, the Cavs will never really have a really strong record. They just won't go for it, partly because they don't need to push to win 60+ games in the East unless another team steps up and challenges them.
Having great teammates though didn't hurt Curry from going back to back. I have a feeling Leonard's numbers just won't be as eye popping though. Not so much because he doesn't have the ability, but more because of the team system he plays on. Clearly inferior players like James Harden have come in second over better players just because they dominate the ball more.
@Eddie, I'll give you that the eras were equally competitive....
It makes no sense to compare by age. Starting at age 23, isn't equal because each player doesn't have the same experience, records or accolades. How does this even make sense to you? Basically, Lebron's first four seasons are unimportant? When comparing players, they are best compared on years played--Rookie Year, Year 2, Year 3, etc. That is as equal footing as it gets, as both players, in any comparison, have the same starting base...
It's not to say his first 4 seasons are unimportant, but if we are looking at their cumulative totals through the age of 31, it would be foolish to overlook the fact that Bird played in an era where everyone went to college and thus played less NBA seasons by age 31.
Do you really think a 6'9" freshman averaging 33/13 would would go to college 4 years in today's game? The Celtics drafted Bird #6 in '78 and let him stay in college two more years. Would a team ever do that nowdays even if allowed to? That just shows how much college experience was valued in Bird's era. It means Bird wasn't putting up NBA stats for at least 2-3 years. Career totals advantage to Lebron.
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The way you choose to draw the lines is why Lebron will never be greater than anybody, to yourself and guys who think like you. You're not giving Lebron and equal playing field of comparison. His age 23 season, he was a 5-year veteran, a scoring champion, and ascended into a Top 2 player. Actually, how is it fair to Bird to compare on ages? Lebron is gonna be the better player in most years by age (Age 24, Age 25, etc). How does this even make sense to you?
How in the world is looking at their careers from 23-31 not an equal playing field? That's both players' primes. How does it make sense to you to compare career totals while giving Lebron a 4 season head start?
Quote:
MVP VOTING
Wins: James 4, Bird 3
Top 5: James 11 (06-16), Bird 9 (80-88)
Top 3: James 9 (06, 09-16), Bird 8 (81-88)
Top 2: Bird 7 (81-86, 88), James 6 (06, 09-10, 12-14)
So Bird has more second-place finishes than Lebron. Is that what you're arguing? Lololol...otherwise, Lebron sweeps him, and regardless, Lebron has more MVPs anyway, so this is moot. Through 13 years, Lebron has been the consensus better player overall...But Larry Bird was Second Place more times!
You're right, Bird came in second to some legit Top 5 players. In Lebron's defense, he lost to Dirk (Top 20 all-time; top 5 PF), he lost to Kobe (Top 20 all-time, Top 5 SG), he lost to Curry (greatest shooter ever; 2016 one of greatest regular seasons ever). Also, lets not forget, he lost to Rose ('11) and Durant ('14), and it is widely acknowledged that James should have won it in at least one, if not both, of those years. Just like Jordan, Lebron was robbed of 1-2 MVPs, and everybody knows it...
We have a bingo. If you're throwing out Kobe, Curry, Rose and Durant - Bird also finished second to the likes of Julius Erving (4x MVP) and Moses Malone (3x MVP). Also keep in mind that none of the players you listed were in their prime every single season Lebron has been in the league. Kobe was 33 years old by the time Lebron started winning championships. Curry has only been great the last two seasons. Rose fell off the earth. Durant wasn't great until about 7 years after Lebron came into the league.
Take Jordan (GOAT) and Magic (arguably top 3 all time) out of the 80s and Bird wins 5 MVPs and 5 championships by 31 years old. We might be discussing him as the GOAT. Similarly, take Bird and Jordan out of the league and Magic has a staggering 6 MVPs and 7 championships.
What does this all mean? Well, it means that Bird's MVPs and 2nd place finishes mean more because they were won (and nearly won) playing against guys that could be considered top 3 all time. That's a special type of greatness.
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But once again, you like to pretend there is no competition, like the 2010s generation isn't gonna have HOF'ers. Durant, Westbrook, Curry, just for starters, this is elite HOF talent he's had to play against. You can't diminish that...
None of those players are on a trajectory to finish their careers as top 5 all time. Durant, Westbrook and Curry combine for a total of 2 MVPs and 1 championship at 28 years old.
Lebron is more physically gifted, while bird was more skilled at basketball.
It's a toss up on who I would take if I had to choose between the two. I think Bird was more versatile, but Lebron is more dominant at the things he does well.
@bill, the Cavs could win 60 this year, and may have to. The East is increasingly closing the competition gap on the West. The top of the East is going to get crowded:
-Toronto should still be a 50-win team...
-Boston overachieved with that roster last year. I still don't think they are a championship contender, but Horford should be able to push them over 50 wins...
-the Pacers will make a huge leap, probably a difference of 5-8 wins...
-the Magic and the Knicks will both improve by 10-15 wins. Not quite sure either makes it to 50, but the East playoffs will be very entertaining. Cleveland is still the favorite, and depending on how competitive TO/Bos/Ind are, they may just push for 60...
I don't see Chicago reaching 50. They'll be overall better than last year, make the playoffs as a 6-8 seed, and be a legitimate threat for a 1st round upset, but they aren't a contender...
@eddie, first of all, Bird wouldn't average 33-13 in today's collegiate atmosphere. Even the college competition and players have gotten better. Second of all, you keep talking about his college years while ignoring the fact that Lebron has still played in more games. You can't cherry pick. Through an equal 13 seasons of pro basketball, Lebron James has been more durable and achieved more accolades. He lived up to higher pressure, played on worse teams, and is still, at WORST, a tie to Bird...
All things being equal, they've both played 13 NBA seasons. Lebron doesn't get a head start. You compare Rookie Year to Rookie Year, Year 5 to Year 5, etc. The age bias you're talking about assumes that every player played the same amount of college years, came in the league at the same age. There are many SF, old and present, that don't fit this weird little age box thing you're trying to do...
Bird's MVPs and 2nd places don't mean more. One big thing, you're always neglecting something important: Bird was always one of the best players in the league. Lebron has played the Jordan position for most of his career--he hasn't been "one of" in years. Their stature within the league, in their respective eras, is different. Lebron was "one of" when he came in. From 2009 on, he's been THE best player, and no matter how you try to spin it, Bird NEVER had a 7 year/8-season stretch as THE best player in the game. Rose and Durant won MVPs in "11 and '14, but NOBODY thought they were better than Lebron. Curry was the flavor of the moment in 15-16 but everyone is back to their senses now. There is a legitimate argument for Kobe, as he went back to back in 09-10. Even still, most people feel that since 2010 as the latest, it's been Lebron's league. The historic FA hype over him in '10 proves that by 09 or 10, he was THE man. His overall dominance of an Era transcends Larry Bird's greatness...
Basically what you're saying about Jordan, is what people are gonna say about Lebron. He's been to 6 straight Finals. Take him out the league, Paul Pierce and KG probably have at least one more ring. The Bulls or Pacers of the '10s have at least one ring between them, maybe more. Kevin Durant has a ring. Dwayne Wade only has one, instead of three, without him. There is gonna be a laundry list of great players/almost great teams in Lebron's wake. He is to the 2010s what Jordan was to the 90s. Kobe has another MVP or two if Lebron doesn't exist. Dirk has another MVP possibly. Because those two WERE still in their prime when he took over, and as great as they are, it's getting a little old to argue that Lebron James' greatness hasn't eclipsed them both...
As I said before, Larry Bird is definitely great. What he meant for the game at the time he came in, is historic. I would say he was the Number 1 SF until LeBron developed into what he is now. But Larry never carried the league himself, he had Magic and Jordan's help. Lebron's single-handedly been the face of the leaguests for a longer period of time. What he's meant for the game has surpassed the lofty heights that Bird reached...
To surpass the influence and accomplishments of the great Larry Bird? Now that's a special kind of greatness...
Bird wouldn't average 33/13 in today's NCAA? Three names for you - Steph Curry (29ppg), Adam Morrison (28 ppg) and Jimmer Fredette (29 ppg). Still don't think Bird could go for 33?
Larry Bird was VERY durable up until age 31. You are trying to pull the "through 13 seasons" routine again because it favors Lebron. Once again, Bird was 35 years old in his 13th season BECAUSE PLAYERS WENT TO COLLEGE IN BIRDS ERA. You can't honestly expect a 33, 34, 35 year old to be as durable as a 30 year old.
Accolades - as already discussed, Bird's MVPs and 2nd place finishes were accomplished while two other top 5 players were in the league. Of course you can argue Lebron has been "THE best" - he hasn't played in an NBA with other top 5 all time players. If we put prime Magic or Jordan in Lebron's era is he still "THE best"? No.
Bird never had a 7-8 year stretch of being considered the best player? What do you call '81-'88? Bird was considered by many to be the best that ever played during his reign.
For example (1985):
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Larry Bird, the Boston Celtics’ 6’9” forward is being called ‘the greatest basketball player” by a lot of qualified observers…
Coach George Karl of the Cleveland Cavaliers told ray Didinger of the Knight News Service: “Bird is so far ahead of everyone else, he’s in a different century. I’ve never seen anyone better. “Given the choice between Kareem (Jabbar) and Bird, I’d take Bird. He rebounds like a center, passes like a guard, shoots lights out from 20 feet. Besides all that, he’s a killer. Hell do anything to win.”
1986:
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One week of attentive Bird watching allows enough time to get an ample sampling of the diverse abilities and peculiar habits that, in the view of many, have made Boston Celtic forward Larry Bird, the National Basketball Association’s best player, and arguably, the best ever…
He is the best player ever, “Milwaukee Coach Don Nelson says. “The Celtics play on a different level. Bird? Well, he’s on his own level.”
Last edited by eddiehaskell; 07-09-2016 at 10:37 AM..
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