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Bird and James will probably for a long time be considered the Top 2 Small Forwards ever. The case can be made either way....
How do you explain that James at age 31 has played in 31 more games than Bird did, in college and pro combined? Why hasn't Lebron's durability been affected? His over more of on-court experience nullifies your age argument, as it means Lebron has risked injury more. Bird played in fewer games. But the age thing favors your Bird angle, because Lebron has been so dominant and isn't yet 35....
Why is it so hard for you to acknowledge Lebron's greatness? Even if you still feel that Bird is ahead, you have to acknowledge that the longer Lebron plays, the more distance he puts between he and Bird. Bird played 3 college seasons--which largely don't matter--and 13 professional seasons, and yet still played fewer games than Lebron. How is it fair to Lebron to use your age thing? By the time Lebron reaches 35, it's likely he'd played in 350 more total games than Bird's college and pro experience. He'd have 17 pro seasons to Bird's 13. The only apples to apples comparison of Lebron and Bird, any pro, is around their professional careers. It's not Lebron's fault Bird went to college; there was HS-to-pro in Bird's era. But as professional basketball players, he's largely surpassed Bird...
The Magic/Bird era is the only era in NBA history with that many Top 5-10 players playing at one time. They also played in an overall weak '80s, one of the weakest eras of all time, when teams routinely made the playoffs with 30-35 wins...
Last edited by murksiderock; 07-09-2016 at 11:01 AM..
Why hasn't Lebron's durability been affected? Well, he's still young and nutrition/training/medicine have came a long way since the 80s. It also doesn't matter that Lebron has played in more games - a younger body can take the abuse and keep going. It's like getting into sports at 40 years old - the fact that you didn't do any physical activity in the past doesn't mean your likelihood of injury is less than a 30 yr old that's been active for 20 years - your body is still 40 years old and doesn't recover like it used to.
Could Lebron's body hold up as he gets well into his 30s? Sure. This could give Lebron an advantage resume wise. I also wouldn't be completely shocked to see a career altering injury such as Kobe's...or the beginning of smaller nagging injuries that keep him from playing like the Lebron we are used to.
You say there was was high school to pro in Bird's era - can you give me a list of high school to pro players during Bird's era?
What does wins totals in the 80s have to do with having to compete against top 5 all time players for things like MVPs and championships?
What does wins totals in the 80s have to do with having to compete against top 5 all time players for things like MVPs and championships?
It has everything to do with it! You can't just cherry pick...
The bottom line, without cherry picking and sacrificing the info that we "feel" matters or not, is that Lebron James has more MVPs than Larry Bird, more Top 5 MVP placements than Larry Bird, equal number of championships, more NBA Finals appearances, more NBA Finals MVPs, more playoff games, more games played overall, and more All-NBA and First Team All-NBA selections than Larry Bird. All while playing in equal NBA seasons (13) as Larry Bird. These things aren't debatable...
What is debatable is their respective talents and capabilities as basketball players. But there is no denying that Lebron James has achieved more as a player, has overcome more as a player, and has more accolades as a player, than Larry Bird. That stuff is in black and white, there is no debating that. That you find ways to argue about that, is nonsensical....
It has everything to do with it! You can't just cherry pick...
The bottom line, without cherry picking and sacrificing the info that we "feel" matters or not, is that Lebron James has more MVPs than Larry Bird, more Top 5 MVP placements than Larry Bird, equal number of championships, more NBA Finals appearances, more NBA Finals MVPs, more playoff games, more games played overall, and more All-NBA and First Team All-NBA selections than Larry Bird. All while playing in equal NBA seasons (13) as Larry Bird. These things aren't debatable...
What is debatable is their respective talents and capabilities as basketball players. But there is no denying that Lebron James has achieved more as a player, has overcome more as a player, and has more accolades as a player, than Larry Bird. That stuff is in black and white, there is no debating that. That you find ways to argue about that, is nonsensical....
How is competing against top 5 all time players for MVPs cherry picking? That's a fact. Just like players going to college in Bird's era is a fact (where's my list of high school to pro players in Bird's era?) You want to avoid these facts and pretend that we are comparing Lebron and Bird on level playing fields. Then when you can't convince everyone to ignore those factors, you invent stats like "More playoff games" and "More games overall".
Like I said before, put the Showtime Lakers in today's game and Lebron's ring count goes DOWN. And Lebron isn't good enough to pitch a MVP shutout against Jordan/Magic. Lebron's biggest competition in this era was past prime Kobe - a player that many say isn't even top 10 at his best.
What exactly has Lebron overcome as a player? He's the originator of prime superstars creating super teams to win championships. I'm not sure if that qualifies as "overcoming".
It has everything to do with it! You can't just cherry pick...
The bottom line, without cherry picking and sacrificing the info that we "feel" matters or not, is that Lebron James has more MVPs than Larry Bird, more Top 5 MVP placements than Larry Bird, equal number of championships, more NBA Finals appearances, more NBA Finals MVPs, more playoff games, more games played overall, and more All-NBA and First Team All-NBA selections than Larry Bird. All while playing in equal NBA seasons (13) as Larry Bird. These things aren't debatable...
What is debatable is their respective talents and capabilities as basketball players. But there is no denying that Lebron James has achieved more as a player, has overcome more as a player, and has more accolades as a player, than Larry Bird. That stuff is in black and white, there is no debating that. That you find ways to argue about that, is nonsensical....
Stats for pts and rebounds are important to, but the debatable part is that Larry just seemed to be more driven to win even though their results are similar.
Stats for pts and rebounds are important to, but the debatable part is that Larry just seemed to be more driven to win even though their results are similar.
I can entertain that argument. Listen, I'm only 27, so clearly I never watched Bird. But the incessant assertions that Lebron isn't at all driven to win, and that his dominance of his Era, is somehow diminished or lesser than past greats who dominated their eras, is bull****, and it's tiring having to keep listening to it...
I stand by my original thought that this is close, but I also stand by my thought that at this point, Lebron has surpassed him. My reasoning: in equal pro seasons, Lebron has the edge in accolades, and already has equal rings and more Finals appearances. He's gonna surpass Bird's longevity, probably fairly easily. It's that simple to me. Me and my friend @eddie can split hairs any way we like, but Lebron's professional career has outlasted Bird's professional career, and in equal professional seasons, Lebron has equaled or surpassed virtually all of Bird's own accomplishments...
@eddie, there were players that went HS-to-pro before the '80s. No need for me to list them out; you have Google, too. If players were going HS-to-pro before Bird's era, he himself could have have as well. It's not Lebron's fault that he didnt...
This is simple, let's make sure you understand this: Both played/have played 13 professional seasons. That's the equal playing field. You and this odd age thing you're doing makes no sense, as it assumes everyone starts and retires at the same age, so everyone should be compared at the same age...
A 5-year NBA veteran at 23 years old, in most cases, isn't as developed to the PROFESSIONAL game as a 23-year old rookie. Why doesn't this make sense to you? Because of that, it does nobody no good to compare based on ages. Players peak at different ages. Some players develop much slower than others. To compare ages is elementary and fits your counter, because it assumes Lebron is playing at 33+...
I'm not assuming jack ****. They have both played 13 NBA seasons. I compare their respective bodies of work based on their 13 NBA seasons each played...
What has Lebron overcome? Lol you're right, his first 7 seasons (03-10) were like Bird's first 7 (79-86). He won 3 rings because he had the modern equivalents of Tiny Archibald, Robert Parish, Dennis Johnson, Kevin McHale, Danny Ainge, Bill Walton, Cedric Maxwell, and Gerald Henderson on his team, and was coached by the modern Bill Fitch, and led by Red Auerbach. Do you really hear how you sound?
Who were the 8 best players Lebron played with his first 7 years? Year 18 Shaq? Antawn Jamison, Mo Williams, Larry Hughes, Carlos Boozer, Delonte West, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Drew Gooden. Are you serious right now?
Why can't you just admit that Lebron's road to the top was harder than Larry's?
IMO, LeBron James is clearly a notch better than Larry Bird, mainly because James is a much better defensive player than Bird. James also didn't have anywhere near the supporting cast that Bird had during his prime, especially starting in Larry Legend's second season (the year the Celtics traded for Robert Parish and the pick that became Kevin McHale). Unlike seemingly most people, I do think Bird was a shade better than Magic Johnson; Bird was the top player on his Celtics team from his rookie year, while Magic was the #2 guy on the Lakers behind another all-time great (Kareem Abdul-Jabbar) during the first half of his career. All three guys are top 10 all-time players IMO however (as is Kareem).
Bird's 1987-88 season (his age 31 season) was the last truly great season of his career. There's no doubt in my mind that Bird would have been consistent league MVP threat for nearly a decade and probably would have won at least couple times had his career started 28 years later (2007-08). (Bird is almost exactly 28 years older than LeBron James.)
One other thing - I've said this elsewhere previously, but IMO of all the great players in NBA history, the player whose game would have meshed best with LeBron James' game is Larry Bird. (The inverse is probably also true.)
The Magic/Bird era is the only era in NBA history with that many Top 5-10 players playing at one time. They also played in an overall weak '80s, one of the weakest eras of all time, when teams routinely made the playoffs with 30-35 wins...
I agree with a lot of what you've said in this thread, but you made an egregious error above. The reason why some bad teams made the playoffs back in the 1980s was because a higher percentage of teams made the playoffs (between 1983-84 and 1987-88 nearly 70% of the league's teams - 16 of 23 - made the playoffs whereas since the 2004-05 season only 53% of the league's teams - 16 of 30 - have made the playoffs). In terms of quality of play, what can be said objectively is slightly more teams have really good or really bad records today than they did 30 years ago, i.e. there was somewhat greater competitive balance back then than there is now. (Subjectively, I think the NBA has more talent now than at any point in its history, in significant part due to the much greater percentage of non-U.S. born players but also because the quality of players in pretty much all sports slowly increases over time.)
Do you really think a 6'9" freshman averaging 33/13 would would go to college 4 years in today's game? The Celtics drafted Bird #6 in '78 and let him stay in college two more years. Would a team ever do that nowdays even if allowed to? That just shows how much college experience was valued in Bird's era. It means Bird wasn't putting up NBA stats for at least 2-3 years. Career totals advantage to Lebron.
The Celtics didn't "let" Larry Bird play in college for two more years; they drafted him as a future eligible player. (Bird's college class age-wise graduated in 1978, which is why Bird was eligible for the 1978 draft despite having one year* of college eligibility remaining, which he decided to use.) I think Bird stayed in college largely because his mother strongly wanted to him to attend college and get a degree. Also, I think Bird didn't become a strong NBA prospect until during his junior year at Indiana State (1977-78), in large part because Bird's high school and college (1 year) stats up to that point had mostly been compiled against weaker competition. IMO, Bird couldn't have made the jump to the NBA directly from high school or even after one year of college, not because he didn't have great skill and couldn't have played in the NBA as a young player (I personally think he could have from a pure basketball standpoint), but because he was shy, unsophisticated kid from a small town and would have had trouble adjusting to the NBA personality-wise as an 18, 19, or 20 year old. That last point is something that shouldn't be lost with LeBron James - for a guy who came from a single parent household and relatively difficult circumstances, James was unusually business-savvy at a young age.
Incidentally, it should be noted college experience wasn't that big of a deal even in Bird's era, though having guys jump directly to pro basketball from high school was unusual. Both Magic Johnson and Isiah Thomas played only two years in college before coming to the NBA, and I think both guys did alright playing professional basketball.
*I bolded this part because the error in eddiehaskell's statement above.
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