Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
People keep bringing that up, and I always wonder what it's based off off, considering that certain BMW models have been amongst the absolute most reliable on the European market the last 5-7 years.
What is it that's such poor quality on the US models?
I don't think BMWs in the US are less reliable than they are in Europe. I think the European standard for reliability is lower than it is here in the US. In other words expectations are higher here. I think it could be that cars here are driven more in their lifetime and that many European cars have more problems as they age.
I also think some of the negative reputation for BMWs and European cars in general is due to the high cost of maintenance. It seems ridiculous for example that for most modern BMWs, brake rotors are replaced when pads are replaced. Merc63 will say they aren't expensive to maintain - but that is only true when you do the work yourself.
I don't place too much value in personal anecdotal stories - but my friends that have BMW 3 series of 2002-2004ish vintage, both had very high maintenance costs that began around 80K miles. Pressurized coolant overflow tank failed on both - $800 to replace. Tie rod bushings on the front suspension. At least one power window failed. And so on.
I don't think BMWs in the US are less reliable than they are in Europe. I think the European standard for reliability is lower than it is here in the US. In other words expectations are higher here. I think it could be that cars here are driven more in their lifetime and that many European cars have more problems as they age.
This is a good point because some things like a broken window regulator maybe considered an annoyance and may not be as seriously taken as something like a broken head gasket or alternator. Also, people who buy BMWs in Europe are not bought in the same way as they are in the US. They are more expensive and a more critical asset since they keep their cars for a long time. BMWs in Europe can come sparsely equipped (like having cloth trim or crank windows) where in the US they come standard (power seats, sunroof etc.). Also, since Europe (and many other places) tax cars based on their engine displacement, there are more engine choices that are economical, notably many diesels are sold there for the most part and they seem to do very well.
I don't think BMWs in the US are less reliable than they are in Europe. I think the European standard for reliability is lower than it is here in the US. In other words expectations are higher here. I think it could be that cars here are driven more in their lifetime and that many European cars have more problems as they age.
I also think some of the negative reputation for BMWs and European cars in general is due to the high cost of maintenance. It seems ridiculous for example that for most modern BMWs, brake rotors are replaced when pads are replaced. Merc63 will say they aren't expensive to maintain - but that is only true when you do the work yourself.
I don't place too much value in personal anecdotal stories - but my friends that have BMW 3 series of 2002-2004ish vintage, both had very high maintenance costs that began around 80K miles. Pressurized coolant overflow tank failed on both - $800 to replace. Tie rod bushings on the front suspension. At least one power window failed. And so on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsh56
This is a good point because some things like a broken window regulator maybe considered an annoyance and may not be as seriously taken as something like a broken head gasket or alternator. Also, people who buy BMWs in Europe are not bought in the same way as they are in the US. They are more expensive and a more critical asset since they keep their cars for a long time. BMWs in Europe can come sparsely equipped (like having cloth trim or crank windows) where in the US they come standard (power seats, sunroof etc.). Also, since Europe (and many other places) tax cars based on their engine displacement, there are more engine choices that are economical, notably many diesels are sold there for the most part and they seem to do very well.
I'll answer both at the same time.
I don't really think the expectation of reliability is any different, if anything, in my experience, European buyers are far more picky about their cars, there's an expectancy that a new vehicle is flawless for at least the first 5-7 years of it's life or up to 80k miles (where maintenance parts begin to need to be replaced).
I've actually not heard that BMW does rotors when they do brakes, so that might be a US only thing.
That being said, if I bought a new model (like the new 3 series hen it first comes out), and I had a lot of electronics in it, I would say that I wouldn't be surprised if there was the occasional gremlin, but I would also fully expect BMW to take care of it immediately. If I bought a late in it's model age 3 series, I would expect everything to work for a reasonable time, before things begins to break due to stress failures and maintenance parts.
But yeah... I wouldn't consider replacing a window regulator a big maintenance item, when I hear reliability, I first and foremost think of things related to the functional operation of the vehicle, not so much... creature comforts.
I do know that certain BMW's have a completely different wiring loom in the US, compared to Europe, so it's not impossible that that could have something to do with it.
Not sure why anyone would be concerned with a BMW. They have 4 year 50,000 mile coverage from bumper to bumper and you can option for the 8 year 100,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty program. In addition for that 1st 4 years all the maintenance is covered as well. You never have to pay for an oil change during that time frame. You can upgrade that plan to 6 years and 100,000 miles and with either plan if you happen to break down BMW will send help.
I do know that certain BMW's have a completely different wiring loom in the US, compared to Europe, so it's not impossible that that could have something to do with it.
They may be but it also depends on what engine and electric-powered features they might have.
Not sure why anyone would be concerned with a BMW. They have 4 year 50,000 mile coverage from bumper to bumper and you can option for the 8 year 100,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty program. In addition for that 1st 4 years all the maintenance is covered as well. You never have to pay for an oil change during that time frame. You can upgrade that plan to 6 years and 100,000 miles and with either plan if you happen to break down BMW will send help.
BMW will also tell you to change the oil every 15,000 miles, and once you do that you'll potentially end up with this:
You're not wrong though but there will be people who are going to keep it past warranty and want to get an idea of how much they will really be paying for their car if they do so.
Viking85 - one thing I was told some time ago about autos in Europe: car owners are accustomed to regular service from a nearby garage. US owners expect their cars to go a long time without much service, scheduled or not. When Toyota, Honda, and Datsun rose in the US - it was because they were so reliable with relatively little maintenance.
As for expectations - There are probably zero people in the US that would say Fiat, Peugeout, Renault, Alfa, etc. ever made a reliable car. Their cars disappeared in the US decades ago because almost none would live a reasonable life without major repairs. Yet Europeans were apparently satisfied with most of these vehicles. Why? I cannot believe a Fiat 128 in Europe was considered a good car.
You're not wrong though but there will be people who are going to keep it past warranty and want to get an idea of how much they will really be paying for their car if they do so.
I am not saying it is cheap. Our office coordinator has been driving her 3 series since she bought it in 1989. I have heard her stories on how much things cost for her. She chalks it up to still not having a car payment. LOL. Still many of the people that I work with will replace the car every 4 to 5 years. One coworker has had 6 new cars since I have worked at the hospital within the past 14 years. Then again he isn't tied to a specific brand. One was a 5 series. His current car is an Audi A6. (Personally I look at his situation as a fool and his money. He is one of our $200,000 a year income employees.)
Viking85 - one thing I was told some time ago about autos in Europe: car owners are accustomed to regular service from a nearby garage. US owners expect their cars to go a long time without much service, scheduled or not. When Toyota, Honda, and Datsun rose in the US - it was because they were so reliable with relatively little maintenance.
As for expectations - There are probably zero people in the US that would say Fiat, Peugeout, Renault, Alfa, etc. ever made a reliable car. Their cars disappeared in the US decades ago because almost none would live a reasonable life without major repairs. Yet Europeans were apparently satisfied with most of these vehicles. Why? I cannot believe a Fiat 128 in Europe was considered a good car.
Well, it's normal to follow the manufacturer recommended maintenance on your vehicle, I wouldn't say it's considered normal that you have to stop by the shop routinely outside of that though.
I have noticed that a lot of Americans (purely anecdotal obviously, just my own observations), seem to think that car maintenance means oil changes and an annual coolant flush, and that's it, if that's the general consensus, then yes, there might be a difference.
I've always followed the manufacturers recommended maintenance, both as far as fluids go as well as parts, belts, etc.
Fiats are known for their... questionable reliability. But they sell well in Italy.
French cars were also known for being somewhat unreliable, especially with their electronics, but they've improved immensely over the years.
BMW's have fluctuated, but the last decade they've proven to be very reliable, especially the 3 series this thread is about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rsh56
BMW will also tell you to change the oil every 15,000 miles, and once you do that you'll potentially end up with this:
You're not wrong though but there will be people who are going to keep it past warranty and want to get an idea of how much they will really be paying for their car if they do so.
Still, paying for an oil change or doing it yourself every 15k miles for 6 years of 100k miles isn't exactly what I'd consider high running costs though.
I am not saying it is cheap. Our office coordinator has been driving her 3 series since she bought it in 1989. I have heard her stories on how much things cost for her. She chalks it up to still not having a car payment. LOL. Still many of the people that I work with will replace the car every 4 to 5 years. One coworker has had 6 new cars since I have worked at the hospital within the past 14 years. Then again he isn't tied to a specific brand. One was a 5 series. His current car is an Audi A6. (Personally I look at his situation as a fool and his money. He is one of our $200,000 a year income employees.)
'89? Nice, one of the more better built (mechanically) BMWs of its time. I love the way they look and age and driving them will never be as fun as say today's new cars.
I would never consider leasing since I would want to go on long trips and use them throughout it's life but I guess it works for some. But goodness, for making $200k a year, I'll buy a SFH, an e46 m3 comp pack, 98 mustang gt and a jetta tdi (for dd), all used with the rest of the $$ going to something more worthwhile like an auto-x or track day or a vacation trip.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
But they sell well in Italy.
