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Yeah, that would be awesome. But nobody would root for the "other" team.
Right.
It's funny, when the Expos were leaving Montreal, there was serious talk about having them play their home games at Fenway for a season. They still would have been the Expos, but another team would have had its home games at Fenway making two Boston teams. That fell through (they played at RFK), but it would have been a decent gauge for anyone seriously considering luring another team here.
Personally, while I think it would be awesome (no way I'd change allegiances though), I don't think Boston could support it... not as a metro area and not as a region (New England). I'd compare it to the Bay area where the San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose area is almost identical in size to Boston-Providence-Worcester. They have two MLB teams (A's and Giants) and they have a REALLY hard time supporting both of them. The Giants are popular, but the A's are mostly an afterthought. My girlfriend works at a sports bar in SF and a few months ago when I was out there, the Sox were in Oakland playing the A's. I was having some beers waiting for her to get off work and asked to get the A's-Sox game on TV. The Giants were also playing at the same time. They were VERY reluctant to turn even one TV to the A's game. My Girlfriend said that they rarely ever show A's games because no one cares.
I think Boston's a MUCH more passionate sports town. I still don't think another team could ever dig its roots in here (neither Bay Area team has the history in that area that the Red Sox do here).
Honestly, one of the only ways I see it working is if you put the team in Providence and it was a NL club. At least that way they're somewhat separate. Still, I don't think it would work.
Personally, while I think it would be awesome (no way I'd change allegiances though), I don't think Boston could support it... not as a metro area and not as a region (New England). I'd compare it to the Bay area where the San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose area is almost identical in size to Boston-Providence-Worcester. They have two MLB teams (A's and Giants) and they have a REALLY hard time supporting both of them. The Giants are popular, but the A's are mostly an afterthought. My girlfriend works at a sports bar in SF and a few months ago when I was out there, the Sox were in Oakland playing the A's. I was having some beers waiting for her to get off work and asked to get the A's-Sox game on TV. The Giants were also playing at the same time. They were VERY reluctant to turn even one TV to the A's game. My Girlfriend said that they rarely ever show A's games because no one cares. .
I don't understand how the A's are an afterthought. They could be in San Francisco territory, due to the intense rivalry between the cities of San Francisco and Oakland, that stretches beyond sports, but that's it. So, it wouldn't be unusual to be in a San Francisco bar and not watch an A's game.
There is an assumption here that Boston residents make up the bulk on ticket buyers. Not true.
The majority of season ticket holders come from southeastern Massachusetts. Rhode Island, Central Mass and the Blackstone Valley also make up a large portion of ticket buyer. If you come from out west, major metropolitan areas are surrounded by sparesly populated suburban and rural expanses, and they may assume the same about Massachuesetts. Actually, some of the more parochial Bostonians think the same about the rest of Massachusetts. Foxboro may be small, but its closer to Providence and other densely populated cities and towns. In some sense, the Patriots truly are a New England team.
I also see lots of NH plates that go to Patriots games. We really don't need another sports team in Boston. One can stay outside the city. Plus, it is already a pain getting around Boston and Foxborough (on game days), don't make it that much worse. Plus, you need the parking for it because a big part of football is tailgating.
I don't understand how the A's are an afterthought. They could be in San Francisco territory, due to the intense rivalry between the cities of San Francisco and Oakland, that stretches beyond sports, but that's it. So, it wouldn't be unusual to be in a San Francisco bar and not watch an A's game.
I don't see what's not to understand. In the Bay Area, the Athletics are FAR less significant than the Giants. That's just about the long and short of it.
They have a VERY small pocket of die hard fans, but they have poor attendance and they are not thought very highly of by the majority of the Bay Area residents (not just within San Francisco's tiny city limits). Oakland's not just close to San Francisco, it's right across the water! You can clearly see downtown Oakland from downtown SF and vice versa. The Giants and Athletics play nearly as close to each other as the Mets and Yankees. I know there are some "rivalries" between the two cities, but that's not why the A's have so few fans. Besides, they play in different leagues so it's not a head to head competition. People just care less about the A's all over the Bay Area (not just in SF).
There's a TON of overlap in terms of the Bay Area NFL team fan bases too (which is more evidence that it's not a geographic rivalry). The Raiders have equally as many (if not more) fans than the 49ers in San Francisco. The Giants have a ton of fans in Oakland, San Jose and beyond. Simply put, the Athletics are a distant second place as far as MLB teams go and Oakland is struggling to keep them there. There are signs all over Oakland's stadium pleading to "keep the A's in Oakland!" It's sad, really.
It's for those reasons that I can't see Metro Boston (a similar size metro to SF) successfully hosting two MLB baseball teams. Certainly not with the way this town gets behind the Red Sox (and has for over 100 years).
I don't see what's not to understand. In the Bay Area, the Athletics are FAR less significant than the Giants. That's just about the long and short of it.
They have a VERY small pocket of die hard fans, but they have poor attendance and they are not thought very highly of by the majority of the Bay Area residents (not just within San Francisco's tiny city limits). Oakland's not just close to San Francisco, it's right across the water! You can clearly see downtown Oakland from downtown SF and vice versa. The Giants and Athletics play nearly as close to each other as the Mets and Yankees. I know there are some "rivalries" between the two cities, but that's not why the A's have so few fans. Besides, they play in different leagues so it's not a head to head competition. People just care less about the A's all over the Bay Area (not just in SF).
There's a TON of overlap in terms of the Bay Area NFL team fan bases too (which is more evidence that it's not a geographic rivalry). The Raiders have equally as many (if not more) fans than the 49ers in San Francisco. The Giants have a ton of fans in Oakland, San Jose and beyond. Simply put, the Athletics are a distant second place as far as MLB teams go and Oakland is struggling to keep them there. There are signs all over Oakland's stadium pleading to "keep the A's in Oakland!" It's sad, really.
It's for those reasons that I can't see Metro Boston (a similar size metro to SF) successfully hosting two MLB baseball teams. Certainly not with the way this town gets behind the Red Sox (and has for over 100 years).
All of this you said is not only subjective, but completely unfounded.
You have suggested in this thread:
"The Giants are popular, but the A's are mostly an afterthought"
"In the Bay Area, the Athletics are FAR less significant than the Giants"
"They have a VERY small pocket of die hard fans. they have poor attendance they are not thought very highly of by the majority of the Bay Area residents"
"People just care less about the A's all over the Bay Area (not just in SF)."
I can infer from this, the reasoning behind your claims are based on attendance figures and of course, the situation in the San Francisco bar as told by your girlfriend.
One, like yourself, would think that if the San Francisco Giants draw more fans the the Oakland Athletics, they are the favorite franchise in the region, hence more fans support them. Thus, if 1 team is favored, carrying the most fan support, the other team is simpy less favored, less important, and disregarded.
Granted. The Oakland Athletics have not only outperformed the San Francisco Giants in the Bay Area, but have outdrew them in fan support as well, in the years before 2000.
With that track record, and by your standard of judgement, people would be more inclined to believe the Oakland Athletic's are far more significant than the San Francisco Giants in the Bay Area.
By your standard, fan support equals popularity, and popularity equals significance. Heretofore, what happens when fan support fluctuates, or has been in favor of 1 team for the majority of the MLB history in the San Francisco Bay Area?
Could you warrant why this is important for this current topic.
Sure, I already did; but apparently you missed it. I was responding to a comment in which someone said it would be nice to see another team (aside from the Red Sox) play in Boston so we could have a "subway series." I agree that it would be cool, but I don't think that Metro Boston (the CSA, even) could support two franchises well. Especially when one considers the history the Red Sox have in this town. San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose is very similar in terms of population numbers to Boston-Worcester-Providence, this making it a good comparison. I was simply trying to point out that that metro area has trouble supporting two franchises (one always seems to be favored far more heavily than the other... right now the Giants are favored) and that Boston would have trouble with two teams, especially given the Sox's history in this area.
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All of this you said is not only subjective, but completely unfounded.
It's as subjective and unfounded as saying, "the sky is blue." The Athletics have not been as popular as the Giants in the Bay Area in recent years (the past decade+) and there are few people who would argue that. I never said that the A's had NEVER been as popular. I simply pointed out that The A's don't currently have the fan base that the Giants do.
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can infer from this, the reasoning behind your claims are based on attendance figures and of course, the situation in the San Francisco bar as told by your girlfriend.
Attendance figures, TV Ratings, and my own experience/observatios in the Bay Area is where I'm coming from (Not just my girlfriend's account which is one of plenty. I'm there for a week every month).
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One, like yourself, would think that if the San Francisco Giants draw more fans the the Oakland Athletics, they are the favorite franchise in the region, hence more fans support them. Thus, if 1 team is favored, carrying the most fan support, the other team is simpy less favored, less important, and disregarded.
Yes, I would say that if one team draws significantly more than the other on average, then yes, they have more support and are more heavily favored. I would add TV ratings to that (A's have ranked among the bottom of the league for the past 10+ years). Is that an unfair metric? If so, what's better?
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Granted. The Oakland Athletics have not only outperformed the San Francisco Giants in the Bay Area, but have outdrew them in fan support as well, in the years before 2000.
Dude, you have to go back to the early 90s to see the A's attendance averages higher than the Giants. Nearly 20 years. I understand that it has fluctuated, but the Giants have been the bigger draw and the bigger Bay Area MLB focal point for nearly two decades. It's not even close over the past 11 years.
This is EXACTLY the reason I brought it up in the first place and it completely supports my argument. My point was that a metro area similar in size to SF-OAK-SJ (in this case, Boston) will have trouble supporting two teams. When the Giants draw big, Oakland attendance/viewership suffers. When Oakland draws well, Giants attendance/viewership suffers. It would be the same (in fact, I think it would be even more skewed towards the Sox) in Boston. In recent history (20 years), the A's are a clear second place to the Giants. Over the past decade, it's not even close. That's why they were my example. Where's the beef?
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With that track record, and by your standard of judgement, people would be more inclined to believe the Oakland Athletic's are far more significant than the San Francisco Giants in the Bay Area.
You could make that argument, sure. Frankly, I don't care at all. My point was simply to illustrate that a metro area the size of BOS or SFO will struggle to support both teams. In the case of the Bay Area, when one does well, the other suffers (not so much the case in Chicago, NYC, or LA). In the past 20 years (and an exclamation point over the past 10), the A's are a distant second to the Giants.
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By your standard, fan support equals popularity, and popularity equals significance. Heretofore, what happens when fan support fluctuates, or has been in favor of 1 team for the majority of the MLB history in the San Francisco Bay Area?Be that as it may. It has more to do with the team's management, rather than the city's performance.
Again, I don't care as it's entirely irrelevant to my point (though the stats are fun to look at). Oakland is currently way behind SF in popularity in terms of Bay Area MLB teams and over the course of their history, there has been very little parity between OAK and SF in terms of attendance (one is always doing way better than the other, or they're both doing bad. Both are never doing well at the same time). Usually one is way high, and the other is way low. I get that Oakland has historically better attendance, but over the past 20 years, that hasn't been the case which is why I brought it up. Just making a relative example of the A's.
For what it's worth, I love Oakland. If I ever end up moving out to the Bay Area full time, I think I'd get a place in Oakland. More bang for your buck and probably one of the most underrated cities in the country. The weather sure beats SF (My girlfriend lives in the Richmond which is consistently in a dense patch of fog). As far as baseball goes, I'm probably in the minority that enjoys games at Oakland better than SF. It's not to say that Oakland has a better park (AT&T is probably the nicest stadium in the country), but the fans in Oakland are generally far more knowledgeable and personable than Giants fans which have an aggravating number of pink hats (comes with success, we have them too, but there are TONS in SF). I like the food better at Oakland too. Love me some BBQ corner.
I was simply trying to point out that that metro area has trouble supporting two franchises (one always seems to be favored far more heavily than the other... right now the Giants are favored) and that Boston would have trouble with two teams, especially given the Sox's history in this area.
Make no mistake, I never disagreed with you about the comparison with the Boston MSA and San Francisco MSA. If I wanted to disagree, I would have done so in my first post.
My point, was that it's a much more complicated situation in the Bay Area MLB. In the last 10 years of CandleStick Park, the San Francisco Giants attendance was:
(Lower than the A's during the same 10 year period of time)
Lower than the A's last 10 years at the Coliseum, 2000-2010
It was pointing out a double standard.
Besides having outdated stadiums, the A's ownership/mangement is further alienating fans.
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