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[quote=ZhugeLiang;24845390]Don't bother with him. He spews trolling rhetoric that he can't ever back up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNEC_Dad
I thought that might be the case but I wanted to give him a chance.
Oh my, did I miss a post? What will the world come to? Especially important to respond to cute little turns of semantics, isn't it?
If a person's "joy" is derived from financial earnings in great measure beyond those of the average citizen -- then I haven't any problem taxing them in measures beyond the average earner. All citizens DO pay taxes of variety including sales and property and vehicle and gas, etc. Those are equalized taxes based on consumptions. Income tax is structured in a graduated manner for good reasons.
A person who earns $200K a year is bringing in, as an individual, 4x the national median household income. If the higher earning individual pays 25% or even 33% on income and the median household pays nothing further on income, the higher earner still enjoys triple or more the net. That's a great reward earned within the total synergy and dynamic of our society as a whole. Nothing wrong with paying for that "joy" in greater measure.
Don't bother with him. He spews trolling rhetoric that he can't ever back up.
Oh my, did I miss a post? What will the world come to? Especially important to respond to cute little turns of semantics, isn't it?
If a person's "joy" is derived from financial earnings in great measure beyond those of the average citizen -- then I haven't any problem taxing them in measures beyond the average earner. All citizens DO pay taxes of variety including sales and property and vehicle and gas, etc. Those are equalized taxes based on consumptions. Income tax is structured in a graduated manner for good reasons.
A person who earns $200K a year is bringing in, as an individual, 4x the national median household income. If the higher earning individual pays 25% or even 33% on income and the median household pays nothing further on income, the higher earner still enjoys triple or more the net. That's a great reward earned within the total synergy and dynamic of our society as a whole. Nothing wrong with paying for that "joy" in greater measure.
If you are correct that a person earning $200k is 4 times the national median houshold income, why are they forced to pay 7.66 times the national median houshold national income tax?
Why should a higher earner be penalized for their earnings?
If you are correct that a person earning $200k is 4 times the national median houshold income, why are they forced to pay 7.66 times the national median houshold national income tax?
Why should a higher earner be penalized for their earnings?
A great question. One that illuminates the fundamentals of the issue. You apparently view taxation as a personal "penalty" ... whereas some folks consider it sharing the burden of society.
It's science really: Man is a social animal ... social animals do not thrive and flourish by sacrificing the many for the greater benefit of just a few ... shared burden is how we got here and how we stand ... 'every individual for himself' is a naturally anomalous behavior to homo sapiens. It has become increasingly prevalent for several reasons, some natural, and some not natural.
The answers are to be found in Dunbar's number, and in the nature of sociopathy and the reptilian brain. But there is no doubt about it -- it's science. If you'd 'enjoy' greater detail, I can provide -- colorfully
A great question. One that illuminates the fundamentals of the issue. You apparently view taxation as a personal "penalty" ... whereas some folks consider it sharing the burden of society.
It's science really: Man is a social animal ... social animals do not thrive and flourish by sacrificing the many for the greater benefit of just a few ... shared burden is how we got here and how we stand ... 'every individual for himself' is a naturally anomalous behavior to homo sapiens. It has become increasingly prevalent for several reasons, some natural, and some not natural.
The answers are to be found in Dunbar's number, and in the nature of sociopathy and the reptilian brain. But there is no doubt about it -- it's science. If you'd 'enjoy' greater detail, I can provide -- colorfully
So why should some people have to "share" more of the burden of society -- especially when they are not the burdens?
So why should some people have to "share" more of the burden of society -- especially when they are not the burdens?
You just read what I wrote about man being a social animal ... I know this because you quoted and are responding to the statement ... yet you don't grasp the meaning of social animal and society apparently.
I would note, too, that ALL members of society 'burden' the systems. We are all covered by the welfare nets that pay for retirement and medical in old age or disability. We all enjoy the benefits of all society's infrastructure -- from streets and roads to police and fire protection, the legal system that defines and maintains order among us and our affairs, the utilities that bring us power and water, the armed forces that defend the nation, the health inspectors that protect the food supplies, the educational systems that provide training for employment, etc etc. Those are the burdens society shoulders as a whole to exist. They cost money. Those who benefit the most bear a larger responsibility to pay for their greater fortune.
In primitive tribal societies of 150 or fewer members -- conforming to Dunbar's Number for homo sapiens, a proven scientific fact based on the size of our species' neo-cortex -- all effort is communal. Those who are successful in the hunts bring their kill to the village for everyone. Those who forage bring their roots and berries for everyone. Etc. This is how man evolved to exist. Any hunter who excelled was proud to provide. All revered and praised him -- and took part in the feasting. If that expert hunter hoarded his kill, he was ostracized from the group. It was anomalous behavior.
Now we live in societies sometimes exceeding a billion. There is a natural disconnect. But the basic truth remains that man is a social animal and does not exist naturally on an every individual for him/herself basis. At such point as that becomes the natural law, there will be no more society. Just chaos.
A great question. One that illuminates the fundamentals of the issue. You apparently view taxation as a personal "penalty" ... whereas some folks consider it sharing the burden of society.
It's science really: Man is a social animal ... social animals do not thrive and flourish by sacrificing the many for the greater benefit of just a few ... shared burden is how we got here and how we stand ... 'every individual for himself' is a naturally anomalous behavior to homo sapiens. It has become increasingly prevalent for several reasons, some natural, and some not natural.
The answers are to be found in Dunbar's number, and in the nature of sociopathy and the reptilian brain. But there is no doubt about it -- it's science. If you'd 'enjoy' greater detail, I can provide -- colorfully
I believe we are to help those that cannot help themselves. It seems you really like to share in others gain but not in personal responsibility.
The penalty is not the tax it is an unequal tax rate.
Since you are sharing resources, I will share one with you. I have found that the Bible is the best guide for humans since it is from our Creator. I will be glad to share more if you are interested.
You just read what I wrote about man being a social animal ... I know this because you quoted and are responding to the statement ... yet you don't grasp the meaning of social animal and society apparently.
I would note, too, that ALL members of society 'burden' the systems. We are all covered by the welfare nets that pay for retirement and medical in old age or disability. We all enjoy the benefits of all society's infrastructure -- from streets and roads to police and fire protection, the legal system that defines and maintains order among us and our affairs, the utilities that bring us power and water, the armed forces that defend the nation, the health inspectors that protect the food supplies, the educational systems that provide training for employment, etc etc. Those are the burdens society shoulders as a whole to exist. They cost money. Those who benefit the most bear a larger responsibility to pay for their greater fortune.
In primitive tribal societies of 150 or fewer members -- conforming to Dunbar's Number for homo sapiens, a proven scientific fact based on the size of our species' neo-cortex -- all effort is communal. Those who are successful in the hunts bring their kill to the village for everyone. Those who forage bring their roots and berries for everyone. Etc. This is how man evolved to exist. Any hunter who excelled was proud to provide. All revered and praised him -- and took part in the feasting. If that expert hunter hoarded his kill, he was ostracized from the group. It was anomalous behavior.
Now we live in societies sometimes exceeding a billion. There is a natural disconnect. But the basic truth remains that man is a social animal and does not exist naturally on an every individual for him/herself basis. At such point as that becomes the natural law, there will be no more society. Just chaos.
They didn't have welfare lumps back in those days. Tribal societies would not have put up with someone not doing their fair share of the work. You have the wrong idea of how tribal societies functioned - the burden wasn't on just some, everyone worked. Even children were put to work.
I believe we are to help those that cannot help themselves. It seems you really like to share in others gain but not in personal responsibility.
The penalty is not the tax it is an unequal tax rate.
Since you are sharing resources, I will share one with you. I have found that the Bible is the best guide for humans since it is from our Creator. I will be glad to share more if you are interested.
Oh good ... let's have an adventure in the wilderness ... you bring your fiction ... I'll bring science ... we'll see who survives. I should have seen it coming ...
You define "it" as individual "gain"? That's what you interpret as your god's intention: material pyramids of wealth resting on a massive base of poverty. Perfect. god's love revealed in human brilliance. As for "personal responsibility": is self-absorbed separation from your society as a whole your definition of responsibility? Is perpetuating the teaching of guilt and humiliation through organized religion your idea of responsibility? (And I assume when you used the personal pronoun "you", you did not mean me personally -- because you surely don't want to open that can of worms where I drag out my personal resume to demonstrate responsibilities undertaken on behalf of my family, community, nation, and society.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute
They didn't have welfare lumps back in those days. Tribal societies would not have put up with someone not doing their fair share of the work. You have the wrong idea of how tribal societies functioned - the burden wasn't on just some, everyone worked. Even children were put to work.
Actually I have a very well educated idea how primitive hunter-gatherer societies functioned ... and modern societies. Among other things, daily activities weren't considered "work", in today's sense ... they were simply part of living. Indeed, the people in primitive societies, even today, don't "work" particularly hard at all. You would consider their lives very harsh in some respects, but only because of your contemporary expectations. They don't labor hard and stressfully over long hours as we do. Their natural intelligence is too wise for that. They do not disconnect from nature and go off into pointless fantasies such as the christian work ethic which really serves only the feudal masters. There is nothing to gain for them in living outside of natural rhythms to create an illusion of permanence.
Primitive societies are generally very egalitarian. The hunting and gathering are matter-of-fact activities enjoined with enthusiasm by all -- and without judgmental criticism or ridicule or pyramidal condemnation and class assignments. Children are not put to work. Children play at imitating the actions of the elders -- and, at certain ages, are initiated by rights of passage into the pride of adult status at which time they are excited to produce on behalf of their tribe and families.
Flat tax! Fair to all who will shoulder an "equal" burden. There's this irritating, nagging thing called the 14th Amendment.
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