Prop 8 passed and those in Government tax the people that voted for it.

[wehotex]

Originally Posted by jkanderson521

Those that offer ill though out arguments against having children have no understanding of complex systems, cause and effect, and the law of unintended consequences.

First off, the only people who "pay" when having children are those who are usually productive, contributing members of society, i.e they earn money and pay taxes. If you "punish" them for supposedly using more services, they will have fewer children while those who pay little to no taxes i.e on social support services, will continue to proliferate as they have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Think about what that means, it is already much of that case that those that should be having large families have few, if any children. Our most productive, intelligent and contributing citizens tend to have smaller to non existent families. That only spells societal decline for the generations down the road.

Furthermore, all those children of today will be our service workers, fireman, police, doctors, engineers, scientists etc in the future. They will be the ones to pay for the retirements, entitlements, and social systems in the future. They will also be the ones to care for those who march around today in self righteous arrogance, boasting that they "shouldn't have to pay for someone else’s kids". It is completely illogical to punish people for having children as you are ASSURED to societal decline and eventually extinction. There are some deranged individuals who would welcome such a dystopian scenario, but most rational people would not want such an outcome. Fundamentally, those who hate children, hate humanity.

Besides, while the developed world slides into extinction, the developing world will have the numbers and will eventually take over, simply through numbers, this has been the case since humanity has been on the earth. The process is even faster in a democratic process as votes are controlled through numbers. Those who believe in having families will have children who will largely follow the belief systems of their parents, who will in turn vote the way of their parents, who will also likely have children and so forth.

The children of today will control tomorrow.

Would couples really stop producing children if gov't didn't throw them a bone to do so? I think that parents should have children b/c they want them, not for somesuch financial incentive given to them by the gov't. After all, these are the ppl who believe in the "sanctity of life". I feel and believe that children are their own reward and need less socialistic support than is currently given. It is really unfair when the notorious "family of 4" pays NO federal income taxes, while comparable single taxpayers are basically raped by the gov't. I won't even go into how single taxpayers who earn more than that are treated. I'm glad that at least I can and do itemize so that the gov;t doesn't give me a complete 100% screwing.

[jkanderson521]

Originally Posted by wehotex

Would couples really stop producing children if gov't didn't throw them a bone to do so? I think that parents should have children b/c they want them, not for somesuch financial incentive given to them by the gov't. After all, these are the ppl who believe in the "sanctity of life". I feel and believe that children are their own reward and need less socialistic support than is currently given. It is really unfair when the notorious "family of 4" pays NO federal income taxes, while comparable single taxpayers are basically raped by the gov't. I won't even go into how single taxpayers who earn more than that are treated. I'm glad that at least I can and do itemize so that the gov;t doesn't give me a complete 100% screwing.

You missed my point entirely and were focused on how a single person pays too much tax. I was speaking of the importance that those future children play in yours, mine, everyone's future. Of course people will still have children regardless, however, why not provide some tax relief to those who are doing things to benefit the greater good of society.

The family of four that pays no taxes is a strawman, the tax break for having children is really quite small and the cost of raising them is really quite high. That really goes to my point about who will be controlling the future. Rather than be envious of their tax relief, you could get married, have children yourself, or you could also donate to charity and get a substantial writeoff. Good societies try to reward behavior that provides for the greater social good.

BTW, we know that throughout human history there have been taxes, and it is well documented that most of the great societies from the Ancient Egyptians through the Romans, to the United States, Europe, Japan, Russian, etc; governments provide tax relief for families because of the larger, far more complex issues of encouraging a functioning society and rewarding behavior that benefits society as a whole.

If you don't want kids, fine, give generously, lavishly to charity, you will be showered with large tax breaks. In fact, since you itemize, if you give lavishly, abundantly, sacrificially, you might end up paying little to no taxes yourself .

Don't be envious of others, do something that rewards others and yourself for the good of doing it rather than pining around resenting your neighbor.

BTW Democracy is numbers driven, the future belongs to those who vote and their "future voters", regardless of class, race, ethnicity or religious viewpoint.

[XodoX]

Originally Posted by MIKEETC

Eh? If what passes? Prop. 8? It did pass but it is being challenged in court.

More info: California Proposition 8 (2008) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I do know that. That's why I asked. I know it's being challened and I hope it passes. I guess wikipedia needs to do it this time.

[majoun]

Originally Posted by wehotex

Would couples really stop producing children if gov't didn't throw them a bone to do so?

The Great Depression saw the lowest birthrates the US would experience up until the mid 1970s - coincidentally, another time of economic strife. And this despite the 1930s not having any accurate or widely available method of birth control.

While 2007 exceeded even the Baby Boom years in the number of US births, its expected that the number of 2008 births decreased and so will those of 2009.

I feel and believe that children are their own reward and need less socialistic support than is currently given. It is really unfair when the notorious "family of 4" pays NO federal income taxes, while comparable single taxpayers are basically raped by the gov't. I won't even go into how single taxpayers who earn more than that are treated. I'm glad that at least I can and do itemize so that the gov;t doesn't give me a complete 100% screwing.

Agreed. Subsidizing large families reeks of old school European fascism to me.