the California accent (San Francisco: maintenance, to live in, military)

[CAVA1990]

Originally Posted by BayAreaHillbilly

The Southwestern Cowboy Twang does sound a bit southern. Some folks also have Okie and Arkie accents layered on top, which makes them sound even more southern.

Of course, 80% of current Californians don't have a clue about any of this because they are transplants, immigrants, kids of immigrants, parts of subcultures (surfer, skater, urban gang, faux hipster), etc, and have not really been exposed very much to the native culture that was in place here prior to WW2.

Funny, we always considered the "Okies" and "Arkies" as the transplants with their accents giving them away. Nobody in my family had any noticeable accent but some of us did evolve into "surfer speech" as that developed in the 60s and 70s.

[BayAreaHillbilly]

Originally Posted by CAVA1990

Funny, we always considered the "Okies" and "Arkies" as the transplants with their accents giving them away. Nobody in my family had any noticeable accent but some of us did evolve into "surfer speech" as that developed in the 60s and 70s.

To the discerning ear the Okie and Arkie accent is distinct from Cowboy Twang (e.g. the true pre WW2 native accent). The VDH youtube I posted is one of the better examples of the true native accent.

My only point was, to lots of people from other parts of the country (or those born here who have been affected by outside accents) the Cowboy Twang may sound a bit southern. If a person has an additional influence from a "southern" place like OK or AR, then obviously they'll sound even more southern.

Since most people in CA today are urban, they are more than likely affected by outside influences.

In the Southland the main outside influence is the Midwest, especially IA and IL. In the Bay Area we have that plus a northeastern component.

To listen to urban people today you'll miss out on hearing the old native accent in most cases.

[CAVA1990]

Originally Posted by BayAreaHillbilly

To the discerning ear the Okie and Arkie accent is distinct from Cowboy Twang (e.g. the true pre WW2 native accent).

Why would you consider the Cowboy Twang as the true pre WW2 native accent considering most immigrants prior to WW2 weren't from the Southwest? I'd say the true accent from that time would be a Missouri or nearby Midwest accent since that's where a larger percentage came from. Also, beyond the first generation, I don't know that those accents would have survived. Kids under 10 years old generally adopt the accent of their new surroundings.

[BayAreaHillbilly]

I'm referring to something older, for example, the argot of Bret Harte.

You seem to really be struggling with this.

Did you watch the youtube I posted? A picture / audio is worth thousands of typed words.

Do you disagree that non urban natives mostly speak the way Victor Davis Hanson speaks?

[CAVA1990]

Bret Harte came to California in 1853 from Albany, NY, not the Southwest. Much of my family on my mom's side arrived in Northern California that same year, coincidentally, from Missouri and Ireland. My dad's side came to Southern California from Southern Colorado in the 1920's. They were protoypical Southwestern cattlemen. None of their descendents in my living memory (1950s - to now) had any discernable twang.

[rah]

Originally Posted by BayAreaHillbilly

To the discerning ear the Okie and Arkie accent is distinct from Cowboy Twang (e.g. the true pre WW2 native accent). The VDH youtube I posted is one of the better examples of the true native accent.

My only point was, to lots of people from other parts of the country (or those born here who have been affected by outside accents) the Cowboy Twang may sound a bit southern. If a person has an additional influence from a "southern" place like OK or AR, then obviously they'll sound even more southern.

Since most people in CA today are urban, they are more than likely affected by outside influences.

In the Southland the main outside influence is the Midwest, especially IA and IL. In the Bay Area we have that plus a northeastern component.

To listen to urban people today you'll miss out on hearing the old native accent in most cases.

I'm a native San Franciscan, who's lived in SF nearly all my life...i've been told that i have a "east coast" accent by a few people, as have some of my SF native friends, (I was raised by a SF native father, and an east coast native mother..Maryland to be exact), i've also been told i have a "NYC accent"...i'm guessing those who accused me of this have never been to NYC, but i can see how the pronunciation of some words by some SF and Bay Area natives might confuse other people...particularly on pronunciation of such words as "dark," "park," "start" etc...basically short words with an "A" followed by a consonant get pronounced as if there's also an "o" next to the "a" ...as in "park" can sound a bit more like "poark" sometimes. From research i've done, this is likely influence left over from the midwestern and mid-atlantic transplants that heavily populated the Bay Area in the 1800's through the mid 1900's.

At the same time, i sometimes catch my self pronouncing things with a bit of a "drawl" that's reminiscent of southern accents, i guess that's the midwest twang/drawl BayAreaHillbilly is talking about, where vowels sometimes get drawn out. Basically as far as the urban centers of the Bay Area (and possibly Nor Cal as a whole) it's a pidgin "accent" that mostly sounds like standard American English, of the type that newscasters speak, but upon closer listening has hints of southern, Midwestern and eastern speech patterns/inflections/pronunciations, etc. in there too (i could swear that SF natives tend to speak fast/mumble/string words together a bit more than normal too). To make things even more confusing, some of my best friends growing up were 2nd generation Salvadorans and Mexicans, and therefore some of my speech patterns and pronunciation will occasionally sound like "cholo speak" for lack of a better term.

[CAVA1990]

BayAreaHillbilly,

I just watched the VDH video. Perhaps what you're hearing is a Central Valley accent that was probably influenced by Okies, Arkies, as well as Midwesterners. He said "man-ew-facture" and "unide states" but I didn't think he had much of a twang. Maybe I'm just not that great at identifying accent differences unless they're more obvious.

[CAVA1990]

BAH - I do kind of see what you're saying. We sometimes soften words rather than pronouncing them exaclty according to thier spelling. For example, "cottage cheese" was pronounced more like "kize cheese" at our house.

[BayAreaHillbilly]

Yes, you're getting it now. It's a version of the Western Drawl particular (particoolure? LOL!) to the SW US. We have our own version of a vowel shift. We also tend to over pronounce our "L" (something we no doubt borrowed from Spanish speakers and Native Americans). A consonant ending a word might get overpronounced unless it's "G" in "NG." Then it's dropped. Etc.

[BayAreaHillbilly]

Originally Posted by rah

I'm a native San Franciscan, who's lived in SF nearly all my life...i've been told that i have a "east coast" accent by a few people, as have some of my SF native friends, (I was raised by a SF native father, and an east coast native mother..Maryland to be exact), i've also been told i have a "NYC accent"...i'm guessing those who accused me of this have never been to NYC, but i can see how the pronunciation of some words by some SF and Bay Area natives might confuse other people...particularly on pronunciation of such words as "dark," "park," "start" etc...basically short words with an "A" followed by a consonant get pronounced as if there's also an "o" next to the "a" ...as in "park" can sound a bit more like "poark" sometimes. From research i've done, this is likely influence left over from the midwestern and mid-atlantic transplants that heavily populated the Bay Area in the 1800's through the mid 1900's.

At the same time, i sometimes catch my self pronouncing things with a bit of a "drawl" that's reminiscent of southern accents, i guess that's the midwest twang/drawl BayAreaHillbilly is talking about, where vowels sometimes get drawn out. Basically as far as the urban centers of the Bay Area (and possibly Nor Cal as a whole) it's a pidgin "accent" that mostly sounds like standard American English, of the type that newscasters speak, but upon closer listening has hints of southern, Midwestern and eastern speech patterns/inflections/pronunciations, etc. in there too (i could swear that SF natives tend to speak fast/mumble/string words together a bit more than normal too). To make things even more confusing, some of my best friends growing up were 2nd generation Salvadorans and Mexicans, and therefore some of my speech patterns and pronunciation will occasionally sound like "cholo speak" for lack of a better term.

One of my neighbors is an older guy who grew up in the City (North Beach to be exact). I think being around a lot of Italian immigrants rubbed off and he sort of sounds East Coast. Reminds me of Italians from Philly.

This is a classic example of accents from other states or countries getting superimposed on the native accent. There are very few people left in the Bay Area who speak like rural multi generational Californians, even if they are natives themselves. Too many outside influences to maintain the old speech pattern.