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If you use all of the Sears Auto Center land, the block where Goldfarb was at and part of the area of the Sears store, I wonder if there could be enough space? Especially if you renovate and remove part of the top two floors of the Sears store. That way you can keep the first floor store area mentioned by Chriscross.
If a plan could be formed to use the Laidley Field land to build a new stadium, I think that could work. Let's face it, Laidley Field was never a great stadium and it's only gotten worse over the years. It would be nice to see a better looking and more functional facility on that piece of land.
If you use all of the Sears Auto Center land, the block where Goldfarb was at and part of the area of the Sears store, I wonder if there could be enough space? Especially if you renovate and remove part of the top two floors of the Sears store. That way you can keep the first floor store area mentioned by Chriscross.
If a plan could be formed to use the Laidley Field land to build a new stadium, I think that could work. Let's face it, Laidley Field was never a great stadium and it's only gotten worse over the years. It would be nice to see a better looking and more functional facility on that piece of land.
If I understand you, you propose eliminating a block of a primary connector near 2 (possibly 3) hotels, a Federal Court House, a convention center, a regional mall and an iconic venue in the Municipal Auditorium and use part of an anchor store in that regional mall as the home stand for a soccer field?
I am really trying to wrap my head around this idea of wanting ANY sports complex in the CBD, much less one of the least attractive to advertisers and marketers. Soccer is a bunch of players and a ball. It is why it has done so poorly in the US, there is literally nothing an advertiser can paint their name on. But, everyone here seems to want to find some sort of way to wedge one into a weird spot downtown.
City planning is a course in university, perhaps it is not a bad idea to avail oneself to it. I do not mean that to you alone. Anyone proposing putting a soccer stadium where Sears used to be simply has no concept of city planning or indeed how a city functions.
Laidley Field is not what it could be and it has never realized its full potential, but that is the state of sports in the valley. Why do you think the high school football championships are in Wheeling? Because those people will buy tickets and go to see it. It fails in Charleston. High school basketball does reasonably well at the Civic Center, but it is never an event. I can't think of any sporting events in Charleston in my lifetime where the whole city got ensnared by the idea of a game.
The best I can ever recall were the Class III Charleston Charlies between 1977 and 1978 when they won the Govenor's Cup and the League.
In the end it does not matter what we think, the USLD3 will select a site based on the backers will and the only two sites in the county that fit the bill are the imminent Shawnee Sports Complex and Laidley Field. Any place else is going to require total funding including land and site prep as well as the infrastructure. Trust me, none of them have entertained the idea of sticking on the side of Town Center Mall.
Ok, I played around and found some sites in and around downtown (I didn't look anywhere beyond that as of yet). I took the outline of Schoenbaum Stadium (6,000-seater) up at Coonskin for the outline. Soccer field dimensions can be played with somewhat, as well as making the stands more shallow/steeper to fit in tight blocks, but I kept the original outline just to see. Here's what I found:
Charleston Town Center
This would be the hardest to work with, but potentially the best location for things around it. The Goldfarb block would include demolishing all the buildings there, plus narrowing the field a bit. To fit 3,000 people, the stands would extend further down the sideline and have fewer rows. Even still, it's an awfully tight fit. The Sears idea, if elevated, would still hold, but the stands would, again, have to be narrower. But with the space constraints, not to mention anything about player or fan safety (or pedestrians below, even with netting), it would be daunting. Still a cool idea and technically feasible, if not expensive.
Holley Block
I like this one. A lot. There's space for the field inside the block and room for the stands without requiring any building demolition. The only drawbacks are taking up valuable land downtown and the lack of parking. The former, while true, is negated by the fact that it's sat vacant for so long. Might as well try something with it. The parking issue is solved by the many garages in the area to absorb the demand.
The special thing about this site is that it retains street-facing parcels for development. Imagine new buildings on those sites (Holley site on Quarrier, vacant spaces on Dickinson and LSW) filling in the gaps in the block with mixed uses while framing the field. Put some suites in one of those buildings and you have one of the most unique and intimate stadiums in the state.
Warehouse District - West
This one would require some demolition and relocation of existing businesses and services, already making it a little more complicated. But it would be right off the highway, next to downtown, and right between the APP, the Clay Center, and Capitol Market. It could be shifted around somewhat in this block, depending on how much you want to encroach Sentz St. or if you want to impact the Ratrie greenspace by the Clay Center. But the location I have has plenty of room and is closer to the APP for some sporting synergy there. Bonus points for this location? Potential for rooftop patios on the buildings across Smith St. for a Wrigley-like experience.
Warehouse District - East
I love this location, too. The field fits perfectly in the spot and would only require razing the one-story portion of the Charmco Building addition. I would just shift the stadium down to avoid that, but keeping it there would allow the integration of the Charmco Building into the design. Building here would hopefully spur the redevelopment of that building and Plaza East, pushing that area forward beyond what development has already taken place.
This is all pie-in-the-sky but a fun exercise. Thoughts?
If I understand you, you propose eliminating a block of a primary connector near 2 (possibly 3) hotels, a Federal Court House, a convention center, a regional mall and an iconic venue in the Municipal Auditorium and use part of an anchor store in that regional mall as the home stand for a soccer field?
I am really trying to wrap my head around this idea of wanting ANY sports complex in the CBD, much less one of the least attractive to advertisers and marketers. Soccer is a bunch of players and a ball. It is why it has done so poorly in the US, there is literally nothing an advertiser can paint their name on. But, everyone here seems to want to find some sort of way to wedge one into a weird spot downtown.
No where in my post did I mention the Federal Court House, the Municipal Auditorium, a convention center or the entire Town Center. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.
I'm not saying that Charleston would support a professional soccer team, in that location or another. The conversation was about a 'what if' scenario. You know, something fun to think about and discuss?
Also, I don't think it's fair to say that professional soccer is the least attractive to advertisers and marketers. Look around the MLS, many teams average close to a sell-out every game if not exceeding seating capacity. There are MLS teams averaging more fans than some college football programs, MLB teams, and NBA franchises and some of the advertisers paying to be the shirt sponsor (which is seen as one of the biggest sponsor revenue streams for soccer) include Target, Etihad Airways, Acura, Advocare, XBox, and UnitedHealthcare.
No where in my post did I mention the Federal Court House, the Municipal Auditorium, a convention center or the entire Town Center. I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.
I'm not saying that Charleston would support a professional soccer team, in that location or another. The conversation was about a 'what if' scenario. You know, something fun to think about and discuss?
Also, I don't think it's fair to say that professional soccer is the least attractive to advertisers and marketers. Look around the MLS, many teams average close to a sell-out every game if not exceeding seating capacity. There are MLS teams averaging more fans than some college football programs, MLB teams, and NBA franchises and some of the advertisers paying to be the shirt sponsor (which is seen as one of the biggest sponsor revenue streams for soccer) include Target, Etihad Airways, Acura, Advocare, XBox, and UnitedHealthcare.
You seemed to be advocating the deletion of Clendenin Street between Virginia and Quarrier streets. That deletion would disrupt all of the surface road connections for those principle destinations within a 2 block radius. Those named locations are the ones I mentioned, but that was not all of them, just the key locations.
I get the what if stuff, I specialize in it as a hobby where I GM an internet site for global domination state craft and warfare. But, and this is the big thing, few of us have time to waste and if I wanted to hear daft ideas I could go to a City Council meeting. It is a given that everyone on this board has a passion for the city, but what makes more than a cheerleaders club is that we each 'think' about the topic at hand and offer credible scenarios to that topic. elewis has always been excellent at this as his recent post in this thread shows. He gets the plan and the logic and then need to keep things grounded. That is not to say thinking outside the box is a bad thing, sometimes serendipity strikes and a wild idea strikes gold. But, sticking a stadium on the side of a bankrupt failing mall in a city with dwindling funds and population is not get pass muster. I like Chris but his ideas have to be taken with a grain of salt, all of them are outside the box; he lacks practicality.
Talk to any director of marketing for a major sports advertiser and ask them, "If you have 2 million to toss on support and you have to choose between football, basketball, baseball and soccer, who gets your money?" If they give anything to soccer it will be pennies. There are by comparison no merchandising tie ins, there is a limit to the size, quantity and number of logos on uniforms and perhaps the worst of all. 30 to 55 year olds are the group that support sports; most of them had kids that played soccer. They do not think of soccer as a real sport. I don't. It is a poor man's sport, popularized in third world crap holes because a ball was all they could afford.
All of those sponsors you mentioned do it on the national stage. That leaves Charleston out of the mix or so far down the list, you would get tired of clicking next page to find the city on the list. Heck, most of those people do not know West Virginia is a state. They probably think it is a made up place for movies like Wrong Turn.
I know I am coming across harsh. That is not my intent. In fact, I try to be gentle with my peers here as I like, respect and admire all of you. But, I will call out something dumb when I see it and this is one of those cases. If I put something out there that is not well-thought I expect to be shot down by one or all of you and if not Mensa has a nose for such things, he is like a BS-seeking missile.
Last edited by Caden Grace; 04-12-2018 at 01:06 PM..
Ok, I played around and found some sites in and around downtown (I didn't look anywhere beyond that as of yet)...This is all pie-in-the-sky but a fun exercise. Thoughts?
Really nice work! As we can all tell from your work along Clendenin Street, none of those are options. I am getting a dimension larger than yours though, perhaps the scaling was off. The Sears store from mall to curb is 173 feet at the greatest point and 161 and the shortest. Neither come close to the minimum - stress again, minimum - mandated by the US Soccer League at 300 feet.
I like the site next to Power Park best but there is no way that can happen, CAMC has driven up the price of all those properties to the point no one can afford the ground. While the site across from the Post Office looks big and unified, it is not. That parcel has many owners and each would require a negotiation and time and money to purchase if they could at all. Many of the properties in Charleston are held by out of state trusts, where the original owner(s) has long since died leaving it to trustees who do not care about anything and never agree to divest. It is why that plot has been idle for so long. In fact, a case can be made that most of the city has sat idle for that single reason. I pray for a Chicago style fire everyday to just raze the whole place, pay off these out-of-staters with their insurance money and let Charlestonians have control over their city.
My family has such a trust. We own several mountains in eastern Kanawha County and the hateful, bitter old man that set I up did not want his family selling off the land he loved. The critical clause is that all shareholders - that is everyone of direct descendent must sign off to do anything with the property. Doesn't sound to bad does it? Well, part 2 is that they must all be of voting age. Meaning even a single child under 18 stops the whole thing from moving forward and my bloodline must be part rabbit; we can't stop ourselves.
While I do not think it is a great idea, but if Laidley is a no-go, then perhaps that triangle wedge formed by Kanawha Blvd, Tennessee Ave, Monongalia Street and Ohio Avenue - across the street from Magic Island? It would be large enough, property values are depressed, some city infrastructure is already present and it is close to the interstate. It would provide another vote of confidence to the West Side and the biking push on the reconstructed Blvd as well as being a tie to Magic Island events. Of course pedestrian connectors would need to be put in place, perhaps above and below the blvd.
You seemed to be advocating the deletion of Clendenin Street between Virginia and Quarrier streets. That deletion would disrupt all of the surface road connections for those principle destinations within a 2 block radius. Those named locations are the ones I mentioned, but that was not all of them, just the key locations.
Unless I misunderstood the original post regarding this field idea, the idea was to have the field elevated above the surface roads. It was that premise I was working on with my statements. IF the field would be elevated, the surface roads would remain.
I will simply note.......if it takes building a stadium it's highly unlikely to happen. (also to note, the Power isn't about to give up their parking for a stadium). The only way it would work is in a pre-existing location. Way too expensive otherwise.
Unless I misunderstood the original post regarding this field idea, the idea was to have the field elevated above the surface roads. It was that premise I was working on with my statements. IF the field would be elevated, the surface roads would remain.
I missed that part of the equation and I can't being to imagine the technical and safety difficulties involved in such a thing. I have only seen one venue in the world done like that. There is a hotel in Singapore that has three towers connected by a swimming pool cantilevered out from the top of each.
But, if going up is the solution of choice, there might be a better location: on top of town center. I have no idea why everyone seems to like the idea of sticking a grass field and bleachers on the mall, but if you are going to do it at least do it on the top. Roof over one of the parking garages and have at it. Stupid idea, but then most of these are stupid.
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