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Take away the entitlement programs that encourage poor people to have kids and you will do wonders to reduce the poverty rate and the underclass in general.
I agree that the underclass is outpacing the high income groups as poor people have more kids at an earlier age than rich/educated people.
Again, reducing the underclass by reducing population growth among the underclass by reducing incentives for poor people to have kids they cannot afford will do this.
We will always have redlining in one form or another.
Allen,
I believe OPRF has the potential to decline because of ghetto blacks not african americans alone. I am against the ghetto culture prevalent among black underclass not the color of a person's skin.
I have absolutely no issues with buppies.
Long-term I think OPRF will be fine and that if it ever really becomes an issue of gangs starting to overrun the schools, expect to see yuppies putting their kids in private schools.
Well,kindra, OPRF is quite a bit larger enrollment than HC, so I think you are committing one of the many errors that force the National Merit Scholarship corporation to have warnings like this all over their site / press releases:
"CAUTION: Any attempt to compare high schools on the basis of numbers of Merit Scholarship winners will lead to erroneous and unsound conclusions. The National Merit Scholarship Program honors individual students who show exceptional academic ability and potential for success in rigorous college studies. The program does not measure the quality or effectiveness of education within a school, system, or state."
http://www.nationalmerit.org/11_MeritSemi.pdf (broken link)
For the record, in the most current results OPRF as a whole did not meet "adequate yearly progress numbers", and the subgroup of non-minority students was only at the 87.2 and 83.1 percent level for reading and math respectively. OPRF does not meet state test standards :: News :: PIONEER PRESS :: Oak Park Leaves (http://www.pioneerlocal.com/oakpark/news/2752958,oak-park-oprfayp-092810-s1.article - broken link) This is, I stated, "nothing special". The performance of Evanston is no better. Fact is, the achievement gap for minorities is dramatic and distressing even at otherwise exemplary schools. Interactive Illinois Report Card Interactive Illinois Report Card
This is especially troubling, as at Payton, like Northside, ALL the students are admitted by test and the fall off at Northside is tiny while at Payton it is signficant, especially in science:
Honestly, when it comes to "making money off this" that is not my interest in this subtopic what so ever. I am seriously WORRIED that no schools are doing enough to educate the broad range of students to the same standards. Heck, HC has nearly as marked minority fall off as other schools (though they did manage to make AYP, which more than can be said for Evanston or OPRF...). From a "stability" standpoint the trend data is even more disturbing, especially given the small family size for high income groups in comparison to the low income groups: Interactive Illinois Report Card
If there was a way to dig into what Northside is doing right (or what kinds of students they manage to select...) I truly wish that information were available to not just stabilize but improve the performance of other schools.
All of this anecdotal evidence points to nothing more than African americans on average scoring lower on standardized test than whites and asians. The reason why is a very complex cultural and social one. Hinsdale central has a majority white student body with a minority asian population that come from almost all upper middle class and affluent family backgrounds. Even at the highest levels of academia you will find african americans who did not score as high as there white peers on the standardized test, but are just as talented if not more talented in the field that they are studying. Whether it be law, medicine, science, aviation, business, etc. The test score gap even exist at harvard. So, oak park river forest, evanston, homewood-flossmoor, morgan park, and kenwood academy are all nationally ranked chicagoland high schools that also have a high percentage of african americans that make up there student body. Most of the student body including the large african american population that attends these schools go on to attend four year colleges after graduation. Schools with racially diverse student bodies have lower overall standardized test scores on average. Schools with majority minority student bodies have even lower standardized test scores on average. But, we forget that standardized test scores are individually taken and a high standardized test score really only benifits the student who took that particular test. And if institutions of higher learning and those sources who rank schools acknowledge the standardized test score racial gap and universities admit minority students who may have scored a bit lower on some test but all other things being equal like completed Advance placement courses, high GPA, and overall college preparedness. Then why would anyone racially redline a residential area for having more minority students attending the local public high school? A High schools performance should be and is measured usng other standards than individual standardized test. And, most school rankings do a good job of this. The end results in my opinion are much more important than standardized test scores.
I know from first hand experience that the CPS schools you cite as being nationally ranked have been on the decline for decades, largely attributable to the dilution of talent that has occurred by too many neighborhoods demanding to have "Options for Knowledge" / selective enrollment. The level of chaos that has become common in some CPS high schools is an utter embarassement and serves the aims of only the gangs.
Further your assertion that a high percentage of colleges make exceptions for the achievement gap of African American students on standardized tested is utterly incorrect, that very gap is why there is a crisis in acceptance rates for even the moderately selective colleges and universities. They simply have too few students that are well prepared to begin college level work. The fact is that when one digs into the truly useful measures of effective instruction and course offerings standardized tests are useful. The AP program relies on standard course outlines and content specific mastery of those course is measure through a combination of multiple choice and free response questions. Good teachers have and do take motivated kids that may have gaps in their prepartion throughnsuccesful completion of the course. That is the whole point of "Stand and Deliver". Jamie Esclante and other talented teachers have shown that motivated students can accomplish great things. Students focused on the outward signs of transitory experience (aka "Gheto attitude") are extremely resistant to academic success...
The data from the SAT subject area subtests is extremely important to the admissions standards of selective colleges. The rational is straight forward: students that have not mastered traditional high level subject matter will drag down the ability of selective colleges to need to offer remedial courses. Sadly the performance gap seen on the Illinois achievement tests for minorities cannot be compared to the performance on the SAT subject area tests because so few minorities are taking the subject area tests. That alone will make their admissions to selective colleges all but impossible.
I really am troubled by folks that make excuses for the poor performance of schools. When The First Lady graduated from Whitney Young it really was a jewel in CPS. She went on to Princeton and law school. The dilution of talent at Young has caused that school to become largely undesirable for anyone that truly has Ivy League aspirations these days. the same story has been repeated in other places many times.
A long time ago Proviso West was a pretty good school. Over the years the continued erosion of achievement has made in a force that repels home buyers. Even the efforts of the district to have a "selective admissions" alternative have done little to change the slide.
The stability of OPRF and Evanston Township has not yet crossed the point of no return. If folks stop make excuses and demand that efforts are made not just to shunt misbehaving students into jail-like detentions but to give these students the best instruction and support possible maybe then people could take pride in the success of all students.
Well,kindra, OPRF is quite a bit larger enrollment than HC, so I think you are committing one of the many errors that force the National Merit Scholarship corporation to have warnings like this all over their site / press releases:
"CAUTION: Any attempt to compare high schools on the basis of numbers of Merit Scholarship winners will lead to erroneous and unsound conclusions. The National Merit Scholarship Program honors individual students who show exceptional academic ability and potential for success in rigorous college studies. The program does not measure the quality or effectiveness of education within a school, system, or state."
http://www.nationalmerit.org/11_MeritSemi.pdf (broken link)
For the record, in the most current results OPRF as a whole did not meet "adequate yearly progress numbers", and the subgroup of non-minority students was only at the 87.2 and 83.1 percent level for reading and math respectively. OPRF does not meet state test standards :: News :: PIONEER PRESS :: Oak Park Leaves (http://www.pioneerlocal.com/oakpark/news/2752958,oak-park-oprfayp-092810-s1.article - broken link) This is, I stated, "nothing special". The performance of Evanston is no better. Fact is, the achievement gap for minorities is dramatic and distressing even at otherwise exemplary schools. Interactive Illinois Report Card Interactive Illinois Report Card
This is especially troubling, as at Payton, like Northside, ALL the students are admitted by test and the fall off at Northside is tiny while at Payton it is signficant, especially in science:
Honestly, when it comes to "making money off this" that is not my interest in this subtopic what so ever. I am seriously WORRIED that no schools are doing enough to educate the broad range of students to the same standards. Heck, HC has nearly as marked minority fall off as other schools (though they did manage to make AYP, which more than can be said for Evanston or OPRF...). From a "stability" standpoint the trend data is even more disturbing, especially given the small family size for high income groups in comparison to the low income groups: Interactive Illinois Report Card
If there was a way to dig into what Northside is doing right (or what kinds of students they manage to select...) I truly wish that information were available to not just stabilize but improve the performance of other schools.
I think what you're saying here is that trying to educate challenged students like they're upper middle class students with educated and involved parents and communities supportive of educational achievement is like trying to put a square peg into a round hole, and that we're probably going to be screwed in the long run if we don't address this due to the larger family sizes of low income groups. And you're 100% correct. This is why we need fundamental educational reform and to use all our know how to tailor education towards improving the performance of groups across the spectrum. It will be difficult for some to swallow, because the most challenged students will need more resources and creativity to reach, not bass ackwards like we do it now. Fortunately, if we take the plunge, it will be well worth it for a more talented and quality workforce in the 21st Century!
I know from first hand experience that the CPS schools you cite as being nationally ranked have been on the decline for decades, largely attributable to the dilution of talent that has occurred by too many neighborhoods demanding to have "Options for Knowledge" / selective enrollment. The level of chaos that has become common in some CPS high schools is an utter embarassement and serves the aims of only the gangs.
Further your assertion that a high percentage of colleges make exceptions for the achievement gap of African American students on standardized tested is utterly incorrect, that very gap is why there is a crisis in acceptance rates for even the moderately selective colleges and universities. They simply have too few students that are well prepared to begin college level work. The fact is that when one digs into the truly useful measures of effective instruction and course offerings standardized tests are useful. The AP program relies on standard course outlines and content specific mastery of those course is measure through a combination of multiple choice and free response questions. Good teachers have and do take motivated kids that may have gaps in their prepartion throughnsuccesful completion of the course. That is the whole point of "Stand and Deliver". Jamie Esclante and other talented teachers have shown that motivated students can accomplish great things. Students focused on the outward signs of transitory experience (aka "Gheto attitude") are extremely resistant to academic success...
The data from the SAT subject area subtests is extremely important to the admissions standards of selective colleges. The rational is straight forward: students that have not mastered traditional high level subject matter will drag down the ability of selective colleges to need to offer remedial courses. Sadly the performance gap seen on the Illinois achievement tests for minorities cannot be compared to the performance on the SAT subject area tests because so few minorities are taking the subject area tests. That alone will make their admissions to selective colleges all but impossible.
I really am troubled by folks that make excuses for the poor performance of schools. When The First Lady graduated from Whitney Young it really was a jewel in CPS. She went on to Princeton and law school. The dilution of talent at Young has caused that school to become largely undesirable for anyone that truly has Ivy League aspirations these days. the same story has been repeated in other places many times.
A long time ago Proviso West was a pretty good school. Over the years the continued erosion of achievement has made in a force that repels home buyers. Even the efforts of the district to have a "selective admissions" alternative have done little to change the slide.
The stability of OPRF and Evanston Township has not yet crossed the point of no return. If folks stop make excuses and demand that efforts are made not just to shunt misbehaving students into jail-like detentions but to give these students the best instruction and support possible maybe then people could take pride in the success of all students.
The more important gap between african americans going to college and whites going to college comes down to high school graduation rates. The gap has closed a bit over the past few decades, but it still exist. In 2003, 42 percent of White, 32 percent of Black, and 23 percent of Hispanic 18-to 24-year-olds were enrolled in college. You have to keep in mind that blacks account for less than 13 percent of the US population. Getting down to basics is making sure that all of the student body graduates high school. You have some mostly minority high schools in the Chicago that have high school graduation rates below 50 percent. Homewood-Flossmoor high school has an african american graduation rate of over 95 percent. And also has an extremely diverse, high percentage of it's student taking advanced placement courses and passing advance placement test. Some of the schools that I mentioned do not compare to homewood-flossmoor in there african american student graduation rate. Evanston is at 82 percent and oprf is at 88 percent. Not as good as hf in that regard. Homewood-Flossmoor really is the harvard of local high schools as far as the black student body graduating and being prepared to attend college in concerned. Most middle class and affluent black parents are starting to wake up and be conscious of the different rates of graduation and levels of college preparedness between the black student body and the white student body is concerned. Which is why you see such a large number of middle class and affluent blacks living in homewood-flossmoor, olympia fields, matteson, which high schools in those areas have high schools with african american graduation rates at 90 percent or above.
Last edited by allen2323; 10-19-2010 at 11:19 AM..
When schools fail to account for the problems that kids bring with themselves and end up being ill served by teachers that may be coasting on the security of no-accountability the people that suffer include ALL OF US...
I applaud the parents that choose HF and sincerely believe that for folks that work hard to make sure their kids are prepared for the future they can do well in an environment where graduation and college are the norm / expectations.
My concern is that, as Bru points to, schools where there are huge gaps in achievement for minority students cannot be considered "stable". I would like to believe that changes will be made to narrow the achievement gap by taking steps to address shortcomings in preparation as well taking steps to recruit teachers that have a track record of spurring all students on to greater success. My fear is that few people will back this commitment...
Some folks like to think my exhortations for folks to buy in the best town one can afford are elitist, my goal is instead to get folks to see that "stretching" in every sense of the word usually pays off. I am sure that for many folks in HF part of that stretch means that they do not jump to the defense of their kids when the administration sets high standards for attendance and behavior. The values of communities that do not accept second best for their students is often hard on the parental desire to "give the kids another chance".
Btw, I strongly believe that EVERYONE really needs to support the concept of objective standards of success. I further believe it is entirely possible to have the "multidimensional measure of success" right along side, but never above the objective. It troubles me that despite the good graduation rate that HF also failed to make AYP. No one should ever excuse any trend that shows even kids with IEPs declining in success. If we are to have and support public schools they must do a better job across the board! Interactive Illinois Report Card
Last edited by chet everett; 10-19-2010 at 11:37 AM..
When schools fail to account for the problems that kids bring with themselves and end up being ill served by teachers that may be coasting on the security of no-accountability the people that suffer include ALL OF US...
I applaud the parents that choose HF and sincerely believe that for folks that work hard to make sure their kids are prepared for the future they can do well in an environment where graduation and college are the norm / expectations.
My concern is that, as Bru points to, schools where there are huge gaps in achievement for minority students cannot be considered "stable". I would like to believe that changes will be made to narrow the achievement gap by taking steps to address shortcomings in preparation as well taking steps to recruit teachers that have a track record of spurring all students on to greater success. My fear is that few people will back this commitment...
Some folks like to think my exhortations for folks to buy in the best town one can afford are elitist, my goal is instead to get folks to see that "stretching" in every sense of the word usually pays off. I am sure that for many folks in HF part of that stretch means that they do not jump to the defense of their kids when the administration sets high standards for attendance and behavior. The values of communities that do not accept second best for their students is often hard on the parental desire to "give the kids another chance".
Btw, I strongly believe that EVERYONE really needs to support the concept of objective standards of success. I further believe it is entirely possible to have the "multidimensional measure of success" right along side, but never above the objective. It troubles me that despite the good graduation rate that HF also failed to make AYP. No one should ever excuse any trend that shows even kids with IEPs declining in success. If we are to have and support public schools they must do a better job across the board! Interactive Illinois Report Card
In the world of national education policy, across the board high standards should be the cornerstone, IMHO. Unfortunately, we know that selling such a seemingly common sense concept ain't easy in this country. Hell, most U.S. liberals won't even recognize the culture argument as an explanation of poor academic performance in lower income groups! It's too, well, harsh. If you don't recognize that premise, good luck in ever fixing anything. They are just as guilty as conservatives who advocate running from the problem for keeping us embroiled in the mucky status quo that's eventually going to bite us in the you-know-what.
That's why the concept of "Spotlight Schools" that the ISBE has so enthusiastically adopted is so wrongheaded. It's basically setting up an acceptance of two different levels of performance -- one lower and one higher. Other than giving the administration and teachers in low performing schools a reason to justify their existence, this concept is pretty much worthless. We should be striving to bring students of all demographics up to the highest objective levels. God knows our competitors in the global economy are doing this.
Unfortunately, I think the problems are so deep seated that even excellent teachers aren't going to get it done. We will have to approach the teaching of our lowest performing kids in a very creative way, and this will take not only a lot of money but an ability to take a long, hard and honest look at the lowest performing groups. Is our society too PC to do this? I hope not.
I was referring to public open admission high schools. Not Selective Enrollment schools. Being able to select your student body based on entrance exams and previous academic performance is not the standard that pubic high schools can go by. Academically, homewood-flossmoor has set the standard in that category for other schools with large african american student bodies to achieve without a doubt. I think having a measurable standard in regards to an issue as touchy as the racial academic achievement gap is important to have. Of course, in order to close this gap the standard should continue to go up over time. Which is why it is important to acknowledge an actual achievable standard in the first place like homewood-flossmoor high school.
Last edited by allen2323; 10-19-2010 at 03:12 PM..
For the record, in the most current results OPRF as a whole did not meet "adequate yearly progress numbers", and the subgroup of non-minority students was only at the 87.2 and 83.1 percent level for reading and math respectively.
The numbers for 2009 for "white" students at OPRF are 89.5% for reading and 85.5% for math. This averages out to 87.5% overall. If you have more current 2010 numbers, they are not yet posted online.
It turns out these test score ARE pretty special when you adjust for minorty enrollment. Using test scores as a measuring stick, the only other school in the western suburbs that educates "white" kids better than OPRF is Hinsdale Central (90.5% reading, 89.7% math, 90.1% overall). The Naperville Norths, Hinsdale Souths, and St. Charles Norths of the world come in next with overall scores closer to 83%.
So why is OPRF on a watch list for not making "Adequate Yearly Progress"? Because No Child Left behind tracks scores based on race, and when minority groups don't perform well at a specific school targets are set for this particular group. Minority students at OPRF are not improving their test scores, which are low for one reason or another. Most people would be surprised to know that half of the high schools in the Chicagoland area are on this "watch list", including many excellent schools.
As far as elementary schools are concerned, some are better than others in Oak Park. Mann and Lincoln tend to have the highest test scores, and compare quite well to schools in other upscale suburbs.
I tried to do a comparison of schools for African Americans to see what schools were educating them the best in Chicagoland, but No Child Left Behind only tracks test scores for racial groups if a particular group has 45 or more students at a given school. As you can imagine, many schools in the suburbs have fewer than 45 African American kids--while hardly any have fewer than 45 white kids. And there are barely any public schools that have more than 45 Asian students, so that comparison is meaningless. I do know that Oak Park River Forest High School and Evanston Township High School have pretty pathetic black student performance on test scores, so if I were an African American parent I might want to buck the conventional wisdom that these are good communities for minority students to go to school.
Last edited by Lookout Kid; 10-19-2010 at 08:55 PM..
Reason: 45, not 40
This is one ofmy favorite threads on this forum. What it all comes down to is accountability on the parents IMO. I was an inner-city, underclass, Latina kid attending CPS all my years (an you say recipe for disaster). However- what it really came down to was that my parents did not take any BS when it came to school. period. They were up my a** every day- I had to tell them what I was doing. I never had homework but my dad made me bring home my math and history books and we would look at stuff together. So from a young age, I knew that "my parent's think school is important so I better do my best." If parents (regardless of class) gave a damn about what was going on we wouldn't have half the problems. I see similar problems across social classes- underclass, poverty-ridden young parents too busy worrying about the drama in the neighborhood too pick a book up and read to their babies. Upperclass parents too busy on their crackberries at storytime to get involved with their kids. Poverty- drop off kids with grandma to go out to the clubs. Upperclass- let the nanny do the parenting so I can do my things. I'm not knockin' any particular class (and yes the reality will be that the affluent children will always fare better academically due to the fact that they don't have to struggle for the most basic needs as underclass children do). However- I'm just saying that poor children with involved parents do have a chance and some attention should be focused on "educating parents on their children's education."
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You need to really check your figures...
