Chicago Turning into a Tale of Two Cities (tax, standard of living)

[Chicagoist123]

Originally Posted by MassVt

How'd the Revolution work out for you, Marie Antoinette?

Not well, but that was a monarchy, not a republic or capitalistic system. Nice try, perhaps you should find a better example.

For the record, I said poor people should get government assistance , just not long term, it should help them get off their feet not provide them money to live off for generations and generations.

[Chicagoist123]

Originally Posted by BRU67

How much they're "making it" is highly questionable. Ever look at school scores from some of the neighborhoods they live in? They don't have a prayer of making it in the global economy. They will be dead in the water. Irishtom and edsg25 are right. This is going to become a problem in a decade or so.

Oh I agree. There are two things IMO really needed to help those people really move up and live in this world. 1. A major revamping in the school system B. affordable healthcare/ access to have healthier lifestyles.

But I think once people who just live off welfare, are not contributing at all in society. My point is they can get out of it, there are different ways.

How is it that illegall immigrants fare so much better making less than minimum wage? How is it that their children do better? At certain point it's also about personal social responsibility, and while there are certain external factors, you have the power to get out.

[MassVt]

Originally Posted by Chicagoist123

Not well, but that was a monarchy, not a republic or capitalistic system. Nice try, perhaps you should find a better example.

For the record, I said poor people should get government assistance , just not long term, it should help them get off their feet not provide them money to live off for generations and generations.

One has nothing to do with the other----not a very good try.

[BRU67]

Originally Posted by Chicagoist123

Oh I agree. There are two things IMO really needed to help those people really move up and live in this world. 1. A major revamping in the school system B. affordable healthcare/ access to have healthier lifestyles.

But I think once people who just live off welfare, are not contributing at all in society. My point is they can get out of it, there are different ways.

How is it that illegall immigrants fare so much better making less than minimum wage? How is it that their children do better? At certain point it's also about personal social responsibility, and while there are certain external factors, you have the power to get out.

Good luck with Americans ever agreeing on #1, at least to the extent which would be necessary to make sure the, er, new workforce becomes the long term national asset that advocates of illegal immigration say it will be. Any discussion of amnesty, path to citizenship, or whatever you want to call it should include this front and center IMHO. Yet it does not, and that scares the hell out of me.

[Chicagoist123]

Originally Posted by MassVt

One has nothing to do with the other----not a very good try.

? No not a very good try on your part.....

[chet everett]

The idiots that say the EU /EC are the reason for sloth and corruption being the order of the day for Spain, Greece, Cyprus, Italy and the other laggards are not going to be worth wasting time on...

The industriousness and efficiency of Germany in catering to global consumers that are not part of the 99% of losers is the lesson to take away from their success.

Originally Posted by edsg25

didn't i make it clear that the Soviet system was totally failed, far worse than capitalism? as for Spain and Greece, their problems stem from losing control of their own government and economy through the Euro and through membership in the EC.

sorry, chet.....what I mentioned under the term "let the government hire 'em" was no nonsense: it was based on the government providing the very services that is the job of the government...serving the needs of the commons ("promote the general welfare", 4 words that appear up front, right there in the preamble). That includes all the infrastructure issues that I brought up. They are essentials. I at no point suggested that any of the jobs created by the government stepping in would not be justified and necessary. I cringe at the very notion of "make work". I'm talking about essential work, necessary work, needed work, true-delivery-of-services work. In other words, those jobs serve society's needs and have the added benefit of putting people to work.

failed system? Chet are you serious? Do you honestly believe that capitalism isn't a totally failed system and is in the process of collapse? Are you serious? Communism itself was a more flawed system, far worse than capitalism, but capitalism today is a cancer that is destroying itself?

Chet, do you believe....

• our present system of supply and demand, of endless goods extracted, transported, and bought is one that is sustainable?

• and now that more and more nations have have stake in the supply and demand, the BRIC ones being the best example, isn't the race to in insustainability a certainty?

• do you believe that the income inequality that our modern capitalist system can survive when more and more people can not make a living wage, have nothing, and can no longer afford what we would consider their basic needs?

• Chet...is climate change real? poising of the planet? depletion of resources? destruction of the land?

I don't get it, Chet? I'm not taking philosophy here....I'm talking the realities of a finite world and sustainability. It's falling apart now; just like it inevitably was going to do when we built our lives around the notion of wealth and getting "stuff". Is this "political philosophy", a left or right issue.....or do we all get bitten on the ass when we have created such unsustainability?

Do you think I don't agree with you that Chicago and Illinois politics suck? I do. But given the cancerous nature of the whole system, it's rather irrelevant what corruption we have in our city and state; the whole system is flawed.

Your mantra is anti-government, anti-taxes, anti-services for the commons; yet you live in a nation where wealth has so much inequality, where the bottom 50% of our population has wealth commensurate with the top 1% and it doesn't seem to bother you.

Chet...PLEASE...tell me what you think: is this sustainable? can the global economy continue? can the gap in income equality last without creating revolution? can capitalsm itself last as a system? If we fast forward 15, 20 years.....will this system still be in place? Indeed, if we look at the system at the present....is it really working? can mother earth, mother nature survive what we are doing to her? (or, ore appropriately can we survive it? CAN A NATION WITH LESS THAN 5% OF THE WORLD'S POPULATION CONTINUE TO USE ONE QUARTER OF THE EARTH'S ENERGY AND RESOURCES? CAN A NATION THAT SPENDS MORE ON ITS MILITARY THAN ALL THE NATIONS IN THE WORLD COMBINED AND THEN SAYS, SORRY, WE CANNOT AFFORD TO MEET THE NEEDS OF OUR PEOPLE SURVIVE?

is my thinking fringe, chet? do you honestly believe there aren't millions of folks out there who believe that our economy is heading for total collapse, that it is totally unsustainable?

[ptug101]

Originally Posted by Chicagoist123

Oh I agree. There are two things IMO really needed to help those people really move up and live in this world. 1. A major revamping in the school system B. affordable healthcare/ access to have healthier lifestyles.

But I think once people who just live off welfare, are not contributing at all in society. My point is they can get out of it, there are different ways.

How is it that illegall immigrants fare so much better making less than minimum wage? How is it that their children do better? At certain point it's also about personal social responsibility, and while there are certain external factors, you have the power to get out.

Mexican Immigrants children dont do much better in school than african americans
if we are comparing standardize test scores or graduation and college completion rates
the crime is a little better,but even that changes once you hit third generation

[Chicagoist123]

Originally Posted by ptug101

Mexican Immigrants children dont do much better in school than african americans
if we are comparing standardize test scores or graduation and college completion rates
the crime is a little better,but even that changes once you hit third generation

But their children don't live off welfare though and welfare isnt passed on from generation to generation. Perhaps high attainment of education doesn't occur, but very hard work ethics do get passed on.

[JBVirtuoso]

Originally Posted by Chicagoist123

But their children don't live off welfare though and welfare isnt passed on from generation to generation. Perhaps high attainment of education doesn't occur, but very hard work ethics do get passed on.

This is because many immigrants don't qualify for welfare services, especially if they're undocumented. Undocumented immigrants have little choice but to work as hard as they can to pay the bills. And that's why they risked crossing the border in the first place, so it's kind of a self-selected group.

[chet everett]

Originally Posted by JBVirtuoso

This is because many immigrants don't qualify for welfare services, especially if they're undocumented. Undocumented immigrants have little choice but to work as hard as they can to pay the bills. And that's why they risked crossing the border in the first place, so it's kind of a self-selected group.

The politicians that will dishonestly promote schemes to allow the "magically money pump" to be shut off so that lines get longer at TSA check points will also cravenly do more to give free phones / housing to folks that will continue to vote for unwise policies...