Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
And I asked you yesterday, but you did not answer: If you choose to not accept Christ even after death, then what other options do you have?
No one can "accept" Christ after death and no one can reject Christ after death.
Analogy: Let's say an unborn baby were able to reason and make decisions about his belief, and he was presented with what the future holds. He was told that there is a mother who is now surrounding him with her love and taking care of him to nourish him and help him grow. One day he will leave the only place he's ever known, and be transported from darkness into light. There he will finally get to meet his mother who loves him very much, and even took part in creating him. The baby might find that too unbelievable to accept. But what happens when the baby is born and is being held in his mother's arms, and he opens his eyes and sees her for the first time? Do you think he would accept her, or do you think he'll want to think it over for a while, and perhaps even decide to reject her?
I've never heard of a baby rejecting his own mother. Mothers sometimes kill or torture their children, but it's generally accepted that this is insane or evil. Is God like the loving mother or the evil/crazy one? I know, I know. Someone will say non-believers are not His, but I don't believe that any more than I believe that the not-yet-believing baby in the womb is not his mother's. God created us all. He knit us together in our mothers' wombs. He loves each and every one. He won't torture anyone. The lake of fire is not literal.
It is not much of a choise if you only have one option to choose from.
Quote:
And who said anything about a sentence? Not the scriptures that show everyone bowing and confessing to the glory of the father.
Jesus said it. See below about the choise, and the penalty for choosing poorly. You bow, you confess, and then you are judged. I don't know how you can reject it when it is mentioned all over the Bible, by hey whatever makes you happy. I can quote it to you a thousand times, and you will reject it every time.
He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
It is not much of a choise if you only have one option to choose from.
They can choose to reject God - its just that no one will do that forever. The scriptures I referenced show everyone will ultimately choose to accept Him. The reason they do that is because God is plainly revealed to them.
Quote:
Jesus said it. See below about the choise, and the penalty for choosing poorly. You bow, you confess, and then you are judged. I don't know how you can reject it when it is mentioned all over the Bible, by hey whatever makes you happy. I can quote it to you a thousand times, and you will reject it every time.
He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Yes the timid and the liars and everyone else mentioned above will endure the lake of fire. I hope your not suggesting this is a physical fire in a physical lake. No worries though, because we know ultimately everyone will confess that Jesus is their savior to the glory of the Father.
Incredible....I cannot believe this...when you die in your sins, your dead soul dies dead...and when God raises up the dead souls from their dead grave to stand before him a second time at the Great White Throne of Judgement, they will DIE THE SECOND DEATH...which means they will FOREVER BE SEPARATED FROM GOD FOREVER!...how difficult is this to understand...?
Rev 20:14 Death and hell were thrown into the fiery lake. (The fiery lake is the second death.)
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
Revelation 20:6Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their [the believer's who saw their salvation] eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things [all the sinners...liars...cheaters...blasphemers...idolate rs...murderers..haters of God and Jesus...darkness] have passed away."
1 Corinthians 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
Galatians 5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Revelation 2:11 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will NOT! be hurt by the second death.'
Revelation 9:21and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.
Revelation 21:27 and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it [the Kingdom of Heaven!], but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Revelation 22:15 Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.
In Christ's love...prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
Revelation is full of symbolism. Are you planning to attend a wedding supper for a baby sheep? The lake of fire is symbolic, Verna. You reap what you sow.
Rev. 19:9
Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!' " And he added, "These are the true words of God."
Revelation is full of symbolism. Are you planning to attend a wedding supper for a baby sheep? The lake of fire is symbolic, Verna. You reap what you sow.
Rev. 19:9
Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!' " And he added, "These are the true words of God."
Yes, revelation is symbolic ... symbolic of actual places, people, forces against the truth, not symbolic of them themselves (if I said that correctly)
is this symbolic?
Matthew 25:34
"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world."
"are those who are invited" Rev. 19:9 = "those on his right" Matthew 25:34
is this symbolic?
"These are the true words of God." Rev. 19:9 = "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth,..."Matthew 25:45
Yes, revelation is symbolic ... symbolic of actual places, people, forces against the truth, not symbolic of them themselves (if I said that correctly)
is this symbolic?
Matthew 25:34
"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world."
"are those who are invited" Rev. 19:9 = "those on his right" Matthew 25:34
is this symbolic?
"These are the true words of God." Rev. 19:9 = "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth,..."Matthew 25:45
Yes, it would be great if it were true and biblical, but as the poster herself says "so we offer the hope ". They offer this belief in order to comfort themselves and others.
To me it is same as a doctor not telling his patient that the patient has cancer, because it is not what he wants to hear. However, by not telling the truth he deprives his patient the only chance to live, which would be aggressive treatment.
Of all that I said you pick up on the word 'offer"? Incredible. So do you DEMAND that tsomeone believe what you have to say? Even if you do, it is still something for them to think about and consider before they decide if they believe it or not. Now when GOD presents HIMSELF to someone, I see not choice in at all, there is no denying Him in His very glorious, sovereign presence.
Anyway, your comparison holds no water. Now if I believed that a patient had cancer but didn't want to tell him so and said he was perfectly fine, that would be a disservice. But if I saw no signs of cancer in a patient why wouldn't I be joyous in telling him that the other doctor was wrong, that he DOES NOT have cancer and will not die.
And cancer would be more comparable to SIN, not whether or not he's going to hell. What UR has said that we don't suffer the consequences of sin during this life?
Besides, you still continue to mix things up. As I said, it is NOT the unbeliever that I discuss this overly much with. If they don't believe in God or Jesus, no amount of hell threats or no-hell enticements is going to sway their belief one way or another. But, again, I am telling Joes' brother that Joe IS NOT GOING TO DIE OF CANCER. Actually we all do die as a result of Adam's cancer, BUT Jesus affected the cure for all. Just some are made aware of it while walking this earth and others either are blissfully unaware that they have it or choose to ignore and just enjoy all the carnal pleasures while they have this carnal life. So Joe, the non=believer would not believe he had cancer in the first place (or a particular type of cancer when applied to a believer of some OTHER religion), but it is MY BELIEF that the cure has been affected for ALL creatures in heaven and on earth. The sooner we realize it and walk in that assurance, the sooner we can enjoy the spiritual blessings that are ours, but whether we are made aware of our new life in Christ, or don't receive it until we are resurrected, we are still all ultimately cured. So it is NOT like I refuse to tell a patient he has cancer. I am telling his brother that the cure has been administered and it WILL TAKE AFFECT at some point.
So I see NO RELEVANCE to your comparison.
Bask in the healing warmth and light of Christ's love.
Of all that I said you pick up on the word 'offer"? Incredible. So do you DEMAND that tsomeone believe what you have to say? Even if you do, it is still something for them to think about and consider before they decide if they believe it or not.
It's especially incredible when you consider that most ETers believe Christ died ONLY TO OFFER salvation, not to give it as a free gift.
I think perhaps you misunderstand our message in that you misunderstand WHO we are posting to when we talk about how all are saved (from death) even those who do NOT accept Christ during this lifetime that we see and perceive.
I would never tell a non believer that it does NOT MATTER if they do not accept Christ now. Accepting Christ now will bring much to your life NOW. Those that believe by faith without seeing are ESPECIALLY blessed. But those that CANNOT see the need to believe in Jesus, who don't believe there is anything outside of what we know NOW, who believe (somehow, I don't understand this faith) that we are here by accident and that there is no real plan for our lives etc, are not going to believe until God opens their eyes. The Bible says repeatedly that no one can come to the Father unless he drags them (usually translated draw to lessen the force), that we do not choose Christ but that He chooses us. etc. So whether you or us (or whomsoever) takes them the gospel message in WHATEVER form they deliver it, many will NOT believe UNTIL the Holy spirit moves upon their spirit and that is when they believe.
I can't speak for everyone here, but the reason why I defend universalism so vigorously on these boards, is more for the Christian, who like me, worried, fretted and mourned for a beloved family member or friend, or even for a neighbor, who professed faith in Buddhism, Islam, or no faith in any type of God. If they believe that they are now or sometime after 'Judgment Day' will suffer indescribable pain and suffering, it causes many to weep and be depressed and many cannot enjoy the blessings and life which the Spirit has waiting for us. This to me, is only partially good news, that I, me, myself am saved but I won't be seeing my mother, brother, aunt or uncle, best friend, etc in that happy foreverland. So we offer the hope (the reality from our perspective) that God is only workiing with a firstfruits in these ages but there is an age to come where ALL of his children will some day see who God is through Christ, will see how much He loves us by His plan of redemption. This then becomes the TOTAL good news for all who believe in the goodness and grace of God, and yet it doesn't preach some pie in the sky doctrine either that promises and winks at sin or that it doesn't matter how one lives. Besides there are many Christians in jail who have done heinous acts and many atheists/agnostics living good and moral lives all around us.
I (and probably most other UR's) just want to help change the message. From one of an OFFER of salvation, to assurance of salvation. There are special rewards for those who live by faith, who walk by the Spirit NOW. So why do you think that we encourage and pat people on the back and say, it's ok, no need to worry about believing in God. You CAN'T MAKE yourself believe in something. You might accept something as true that you have been taught all your life, but until it becomes a factor in your life you aren't really 'believing' it.
Trying to get someone to change their mind about serving one God who has one set of rules and one standard with punishment for non compliance, to serve another God with a foreign concept of rules and still punishment isn't all that much incentive. Trying to convince someone who doesn't believe there is anything beyond the visible life and death of this world will fall on deaf ears until the Holy Spirit opens their eyes and ears. But we want to lighten up the hearts of current believers to have complete hope and trust in our loving God and Father.
As far as laughing off a few hundred or thousand years of refinement for several years of riotous living? We humans hate waiting a year for our next vacation from the every day grind we go to. We anticipate every holiday. What makes ANYONE think that having to endure 1000 years under the dominion of people who you laughed at during a former age is NOTHING? That would be VERY difficult. I am not saying I know how long or what manner the refinement takes. It is most likely different for each person, depending upon their stubbornness, etc.
But as far as being FORCED to believe in God? That's crazy. Once you come before His throne, there is no point in NOT believing. We don't physically see it now so many can deny it. But once you are there, denial would be laughable. When His love hits you full force in the face and heart, I don't see how you can help but fall on your knees and realize what you had run from.
But when Thomas would not believe until he actually saw Jesus, Jesus did NOT rebuke him for his lack of faith, in fact if I recall he called Thomas blessed. But those who believe WITHOUT seeing, merely by faith, will receive special blessings.
Anyway, I've tried to say this on other threads. I believe the gospel message would at least be considered more viable when presented as God having already forgiven us through Christ. In my view, it wouldn't increase the number of converts because God has already decreed how many and who will receive the gospel in THESE ages, but I do believe it can bring more joy, more love and trust, more comfort to those who have lost people and have worried about their final disposition.
Sorry for the length. I tend to say things with too many words.
Peace and joy to all of the forum readers/posters today.
Anyway, your comparison holds no water. Now if I believed that a patient had cancer but didn't want to tell him so and said he was perfectly fine, that would be a disservice. But if I saw no signs of cancer in a patient why wouldn't I be joyous in telling him that the other doctor was wrong, that he DOES NOT have cancer and will not die.
And cancer would be more comparable to SIN, not whether or not he's going to hell. What UR has said that we don't suffer the consequences of sin during this life?
Of course it is sin, and every person has sinned, and sin keeps us apart from God. In my example everyone has cancer, but the UR doctor tells the patient that there is nothing to worry about. When you tell people that everyone is automatically saved after they die, they don't see the need to seek Christ while they live, and they go on living with this cancer. When they die it will be too late for them to repent, because at that time the death has turned eternal because they rejected eternal life when they still had the chance.
What is the harm of accepting Christ while you live? There is no harm, because even if it was wrong (which it is not) you will have eternal life whether or not hell exists. You are saved either way.
What is the harm of believing UR and relying on automatic post mortem salvation? If the theory is wrong (which is it) and you die as an unbeliever, God's wrath will remain on you, and you will suffer eternal torment.
I understand you personally have a relationship with Christ, so you yourself are saved, but you are selling another teaching to unbelievers. You are selling a belief that it is not necessary to accept Christ while living. How will you feel if you go to heaven and you realize that people who believed your UR message and went to hell because of it? How will God feel about that?
When you see contradictions between your belief system and the rest of the Bible, the warning lights should go off, and prompt you to take a more careful look. And I can tell you that UR creates A LOT of contradictions with the rest of the Bible.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
