Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Your apparent double standard .... why wasn't that offer given to the other criminal? It wasn't like the other criminal couldn't get away from this situation.
Jesus said other things too....why believe only some and not others?
Luke 23:
39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God,"( this thief feared God)he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, ( acknowledgement of sin)for we are getting what our deeds deserve.( acknowledgement of God's truth) But this man has done nothing wrong." ( upholding Christ, belief in Him) Read Numbers 25: 6-13 an act of honoring God makes peace with God.
42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. ( belief in Jesus and God's Kingdom)"
God Bless,
Mercy 43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
I don't know why you would not believe everything that was written about what Christ said ... I do.
The other criminal was hanging from a cross, how do you suppose he could have gotten away?
I really don't understand what you are going on about. It seems like you are trying to trick me or that you are implying something, but for the life of me i cant figure out what. Why don't you just come out and say whatever it is you are thinking?
Have you ever tried to play Jeopardy
Jeopardy: Psychiatry for 500
"a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact" ......
answer: What is __________________________?
"but he was given the tomb of his uncle Joseph of Arimathea"
"I don't know why you would not believe everything that was written about what Christ said ... I do. "
(paraphrased)
"I do believe everything that was written about what Jesus said" Really .... e v e r y t h i n g ?
( I won't come right out and say it, but figure out Psychiatry for 500 and either you or I fit it to a "T" ) from my perspective ...it ain't me.
Everyone believe that they are right in their own head. What is important is how what you believe effects how you deal with others. None of us are right about everything we believe in, and i can admit that i might be wrong about everything i believe ... The question is, can you?
39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God,"( this thief feared God)he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, ( acknowledgement of sin)for we are getting what our deeds deserve.( acknowledgement of God's truth) But this man has done nothing wrong." ( upholding Christ, belief in Him) Read Numbers 25: 6-13 an act of honoring God makes peace with God.
42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. ( belief in Jesus and God's Kingdom)"
God Bless,
Mercy 43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
ahh...the offer prior to death of the criminals ....
which criminal understood correctly about God and the limited time frame
A. the criminal who stuck to his demand: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
B. the other criminal rebuked him who said: "Don't you fear God," Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. ( belief in Jesus and God's Kingdom)
A. is the short version message of universalism
B. is the short version John 3:36, John 3:16 and Mark 3:29
Mark 3:29 "But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
.... e v e r y t h i n g Ironmaw1776 Jesus said "will n e v e r be forgiven"
ahh...the offer prior to death of the criminals ....
which criminal understood correctly about God and the limited time frame
A. the criminal who stuck to his demand: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
B. the other criminal rebuked him who said: "Don't you fear God," Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. ( belief in Jesus and God's Kingdom)
A. is the short version message of universalism
B. is the short version John 3:36, John 3:16 and Mark 3:29
Mark 3:29 "But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
.... e v e r y t h i n g Ironmaw1776 Jesus said "n e v e r will be forgiven"
Twins-Spin ... That is not what Christ said. Christ did not even speak English. Here is what Christ actually said ...
Quote:
Greek Interlinear -
os
hos
G3739
pr Nom Sg m
WHO
d
d
G1161
Conj
YET
an
an
G302
Part
EVER
blasfhmhsh
blasphEmEsE
G987
vs Aor Act 3 Sg
SHOULD-BE-HARM-AVERRING
should-be-blaspheming
eis
eis
G1519
Prep
INTO
to
to
G3588
t_ Acc Sg n
THE
pneuma
pneuma
G4151
n_ Acc Sg n
spirit
to
to
G3588
t_ Acc Sg n
THE
agion
hagion
G40
a_ Acc Sg n
HOLY
ouk
ouk
G3756
Part Neg
NOT
ecei
echei
G2192
vi Pres Act 3 Sg
IS-HAVING
afesin
aphesin
G859
n_ Acc Sg f
FROM-LETTing
pardon
eis
eis
G1519
Prep
INTO
ton
ton
G3588
t_ Acc Sg m
THE
aiwna
aiOna
G165
n_ Acc Sg m
eon
all
all
G235
Conj
but
enocos
enochos
G1777
a_ Nom Sg m
liable
estin
estin
G2076
vi Pres vxx 3 Sg
IS
aiwniou
aiOniou
G166
a_ Gen Sg f
OF-eonian
krisews
kriseOs
G2920
n_ Gen Sg f
JUDGing
When translated into English properly, it should read ...
(YLT)
"but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment"
The translation you quoted doesn't even translate the words "eis ton aiwna" or "into the age", but instead it uses the word "never" ... "eis ton aiwna" does not mean "never" ...
And the translation you quoted translated "aiwniou krisews" as "eternal sin", but that is not what "aiwniou krisews" means ... "aiwniou krisews" means "eonian judgment", or "judgment pertaining to the age", or "age during judgment".
And most telling of all is the fact that the translation you quoted translates the word "krisews" as sin, but the Greek term for sin is "hamartia" or one of its other forms, not "krisews" ... "krisews" means judgment, not sin.
So yes i believe what Jesus said, but i don't believe that the English translation you quoted is anywhere near accurate to the original Greek.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 08-16-2010 at 03:54 PM..
Mark 3:29 ὃς δ' ἂν βλασφημήσῃ εἰς τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον, οὐκ ἔχει ἄφεσιν εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα, ἀλλὰ ἔνοχός ἐστιν αἰωνίου ἁμαρτήματος.
but whoever may blaspheme against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin"
Adjective: Genitive Singular Neuter
John 6:68 ἀπεκρίθη αὐτῷ Σίμων Πέτρος· κύριε, πρὸς τίνα ἀπελευσόμεθα; ῥήματα ζωῆς αἰωνίου ἔχεις,
Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life.
Adjective: Genitive Singular Feminine
Acts 13:46 παρρησιασάμενοί τε ὁ Παῦλος καὶ ὁ Βαρναβᾶς εἶπαν· ὑμῖν ἦν ἀναγκαῖον πρῶτον λαληθῆναι τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ· ἐπειδὴ ἀπωθεῖσθε αὐτὸν καὶ οὐκ ἀξίους κρίνετε ἑαυτοὺς τῆς αἰωνίου ζωῆς, ἰδοὺ στρεφόμεθα εἰς τὰ ἔθνη.
Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, and said, "It was necessary that God's word should be spoken to you first. Since indeed you thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.
Adjective: Genitive Singular Feminine
Romans 16:26 φανερωθέντος δὲ νῦν διά τε γραφῶν προφητικῶν κατ' ἐπιταγὴν τοῦ αἰωνίου θεοῦ εἰς ὑπακοὴν πίστεως εἰς πάντα τὰ ἔθνη γνωρισθέντος,
(14:25) but now is revealed, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known for obedience of faith to all the nations;
Adjective: Genitive Singular Masculine
1 Timothy 6:12 ἀγωνίζου τὸν καλὸν ἀγῶνα τῆς πίστεως, ἐπιλαβοῦ τῆς αἰωνίου ζωῆς, εἰς ἣν ἐκλήθης καὶ ὡμολόγησας τὴν καλὴν ὁμολογίαν ἐνώπιον πολλῶν μαρτύρων.
Fight the good fight of faith. Lay hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you confessed the good confession in the sight of many witnesses.
Adjective: Genitive Singular Feminine
2 Timothy 2:10 διὰ τοῦτο πάντα ὑπομένω διὰ τοὺς ἐκλεκτούς, ἵνα καὶ αὐτοὶ σωτηρίας τύχωσιν τῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ μετὰ δόξης αἰωνίου.
Therefore I endure all things for the chosen ones' sake, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Adjective: Genitive Singular Feminine
Titus 1:2 ἐπ' ἐλπίδι ζωῆς αἰωνίου, ἣν ἐπηγγείλατο ὁ ἀψευδὴς θεὸς πρὸ χρόνων αἰωνίων,
in hope of eternal life, which God, who can't lie, promised before time began;
Adjective: Genitive Singular Feminine
Titus 3:7 ἵνα δικαιωθέντες τῇ ἐκείνου χάριτι κληρονόμοι γενηθῶμεν κατ' ἐλπίδα ζωῆς αἰωνίου.
that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Adjective: Genitive Singular Feminine
Hebrews 5:9 καὶ τελειωθεὶς ἐγένετο πᾶσιν τοῖς ὑπακούουσιν αὐτῷ αἴτιος σωτηρίας αἰωνίου,
Having been made perfect, he became to all of those who obey him the author of eternal salvation,
Adjective: Genitive Singular Feminine
Hebrews 6:2 βαπτισμῶν διδαχὴν / διδαχῆς ἐπιθέσεώς τε χειρῶν ἀναστάσεώς [τε] νεκρῶν καὶ κρίματος αἰωνίου.
of the teaching of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Adjective: Genitive Singular Neuter
Hebrews 9:14 πόσῳ μᾶλλον τὸ αἷμα τοῦ Χριστοῦ, ὃς διὰ πνεύματος αἰωνίου ἑαυτὸν προσήνεγκεν ἄμωμον τῷ θεῷ καθαριεῖ τὴν συνείδησιν ἡμῶν ἀπὸ νεκρῶν ἔργων εἰς τὸ λατρεύειν θεῷ ζῶντι.
how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Adjective: Genitive Singular Neuter
Hebrews 9:15 Καὶ διὰ τοῦτο διαθήκης καινῆς μεσίτης ἐστίν, ὅπως θανάτου γενομένου εἰς ἀπολύτρωσιν τῶν ἐπὶ τῇ πρώτῃ διαθήκῃ παραβάσεων τὴν ἐπαγγελίαν λάβωσιν οἱ κεκλημένοι τῆς αἰωνίου κληρονομίας.
For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant, since a death has occurred for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, that those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Adjective: Genitive Singular Feminine
Hebrews 13:20 ὁ δὲ θεὸς τῆς εἰρήνης, ὁ ἀναγαγὼν ἐκ νεκρῶν τὸν ποιμένα τῶν προβάτων τὸν μέγαν ἐν αἵματι διαθήκης αἰωνίου, τὸν κύριον ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦν,
Now may the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great shepherd of the sheep with the blood of an eternal covenant, our Lord Jesus,
Adjective: Genitive Singular Feminine
Jude 1:7 ὡς Σόδομα καὶ Γόμορρα καὶ αἱ περὶ αὐτὰς πόλεις τὸν ὅμοιον τρόπον τούτοις ἐκπορνεύσασαι καὶ ἀπελθοῦσαι ὀπίσω σαρκὸς ἑτέρας, πρόκεινται δεῖγμα πυρὸς αἰωνίου δίκην ὑπέχουσαι.
Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, having, in the same way as these, given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire.
Adjective: Genitive Singular Neuter
Twins-Spin ... That is not what Christ said. Christ did not even speak English. Here is what Christ actually said ...
When translated into English properly, it should read ...
(YLT)
"but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment"
The translation you quoted doesn't even translate the words "eis ton aiwna" or "into the age", but instead it uses the word "never" ... "eis ton aiwna" does not mean "never" ...
And the translation you quoted translated "aiwniou krisews" as "eternal sin", but that is not what "aiwniou krisews" means ... "aiwniou krisews" means "eonian judgment", or "judgment pertaining to the ages", or "age during judgment".
And most telling of all is the fact that the translation you quoted translates the word "krisews" as sin, but the Greek term for sin is "hamartia" or one of its other forms, not "krisews" ... "krisews" means judgment, not sin.
So yes i believe what Jesus said, but i don't believe that the English translation you quoted is anywhere near accurate to the original Greek.
Pay attention to the "will never be forgiven" part. Even your translation says "hath not forgiveness". You are trying to cling to the other part of the message, but no amount of word twisting and omitting can change the meaning of the verse.
Pay attention to the "will never be forgiven" part. Even your translation says "hath not forgiveness". You are trying to cling to the other part of the message, but no amount of word twisting and omitting can change the meaning of the verse.
One cannot change the meaning of the verse....hence context as you have pointed out. Whenever someones tells me that the translators are incorrect and the truth is withheld, they are immediately suspect in my opinion. I, first and foremost, deny that a knowledge of the original language is necessary to understand the truth of God's word. What God is explaining to us in his word is able to be truthfully expressed and easily understood in any language by any normally intelligent person, after they have believed the gospel that they have heard preached to them and they have recieved the gift of the Holy Spirit. Until then, the only thing a person can hear is the gospel of Jesus the Christ and him crucified for our sin, which is our administration and ministry to teach and preach.
Translation from the Hebrew and Greek into the English language, which by necessity translates into the idiom of that language so that it is readable by the natives in that language. Greek idiom and syntax and English idiom and syntax are not the same. Greek grammar and English grammar are not the same. Each language has its own particular syntax. Translating from one language to another requires the translators to use these additional idiomatic words and syntactical changes throughout the entire scriptures, both Hebrew and Greek, but never does it falsify the scripture, or denies Christ and makes the gospel of Christ of none effect, as UR proposes from their continual removal of context.
Pay attention to the "will never be forgiven" part. Even your translation says "hath not forgiveness". You are trying to cling to the other part of the message, but no amount of word twisting and omitting can change the meaning of the verse.
"Hath not forgiveness in the age" ... What does this mean? Christ was predicting the eonian judgment that was to come upon the nation of Israel for their rejecting him as the messiah. And he was warning them that because they rejected him as messiah, and claimed that he cast out the devil by the power of the devil(Blasphemy of the spirit), they would not escape the judgment that finally came upon them in 70 AD when Rome sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the temple and dispersed the Israelis throughout the nations.
But Paul clearly writes that all Israel will be forgiven, that they were Cut off so that the Gentiles could be grafted in. Paul write the blindness happened to Israel, and that they became the enemies of the gospel for the sake of the gentiles, but that they are still believed of the father for the sake of election. He also write that they will receive mercy by our(believers) mercy. Romans 11 clearly teaches the error of the fundamentalist interpretation of this scripture and the translations which it spawned.
I am not the one omitting anything, you and all who would deny that Christ actually said that they would not be forgiven "in the age" are the ones omitting parts of the original Greek scriptures.
FYI, the Greek word for never is "oudepote" ... That word was not used in this verse.
"Hath not forgiveness in the age" ... What does this mean, Christ was predicting the eonian judgment that was to come upon the nation of Israel for their rejecting him as the messiah. And he was warning them that because the rejected him as messiah, and claimed that he cast out the devil by the power of the devil(Blasphemy of the spirit), they would not escape the judgment that finally came upon them in 70 AD when Rome sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the temple and dispersed the Israelis throughout the nations.
But Paul clearly writes that all Israel will be forgiven, that they were Cut off so that the Gentiles could be grafted in. Paul write the blindness happened to Israel, and that they became the enemies of the gospel for the sake of the gentiles, but that they are still believed of the father for the sake of election. He also write that they will receive mercy by our(believers) mercy. Romans 11 clearly teaches the error of the fundamentalist interpretation of this scripture and the translations which it spawned.
I am not the one omitting anything, you and all who would deny that Christ actually said that they would not be forgiven in that age.
God bless ...
No, you aren't omitting anything, but you are imposing and withholding what is truth in the word of God.
Hence, All Israel, a selective group, Jew and Gentile, the many, as Paul concludes, are saved.....apart from the world....that is not, because of unbelief.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jesus said "will n e v e r be forgiven"
