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The penalty of sin is spiritual death which also resulted in physical death. Spiritual death refers to a loss of relationship with God in time. God had warned Adam that if he disobeyed Him and used his God given volition to disobey Him by eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would immediately die.
Genesis 2:16 'And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, ''From any tree of the garden you may eat freely, 17] but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die.''
In the original Hebrew it actually says '...for in the day that you eat from it dying (spiritually) you will die (physically)'. Adam's spiritual death, his broken relationship with God was instantaneous. But his physical death didn't occur until many hundreds of years later.
Adam and the woman were given the Gospel by the Lord Himself after they ate the fruit and both believed and received eternal life as a result. But, thereafter, as a result of Adam's original sin, every member of the human race is born spiritually dead and will die physically.
The word of God makes it clear that the opportunity whereby man can avail himself of God's offer of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ is limited to his time on this earth. God's purpose and desire for bringing anyone into this life is for the following two reasons. 1) That the unbeliever may use his volition to place his faith in Christ for salvation; and 2) for those who do place their faith in Christ for salvation, that they might make continual decisions to advance to spiritual maturity through the intake and metabolization of Bible doctrine and the application of that doctrine to the circumstances of their life.
Hebrews 9:27 states as a general principle, that it is appointed for men to die once and then face judgment. There have been exceptions to this general principle. For instance, Lazarus was resuscitated by Jesus four days after his death, only to die again at some later date. But generally speaking, men die once and then face judgment.
Hebrews 9:27 'And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment,'
Following his physical death a man's eternal disposition is eternally set and is unalterable. Both the believer and the unbeliever face judgment at an appointed moment after death.
For the church-age believer, the judgment that he faces is the judgment seat or Bema seat of Christ and occurs in Heaven following the rapture of the church. This judgment is to evaluate the works of the believer for the purpose of reward.
1 Corinthians 3:11-15 'For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12] Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13] each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14] If any man's work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. 15] If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss (of reward); but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.
2 Corinthians 5:10 'For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good (divine good produced through the filling of the Holy Spirit - gold, silver, precious stones) or bad (human good produced through the function of the old sin nature - wood, hay, straw).
Those members of the human race who have died without receiving Jesus Christ as Savior, face an entirely different judgment which will take place at the end of the Millennium. This judgment is described in Revelation 20:11-15.
Revelation 20:11 'And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it (Jesus Christ), from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12] And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them (this is a reference to the second resurrection - the resurrection of all unbelievers from all periods of human history. Death refers to the resurrection of the body, and Hades refers to the soul of the unbeliever coming out of Hades to rejoin the resurrected body); and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14] And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15] And if anyone's name was not found writen in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.'
The second death and the lake of fire are synonymous terms in verse 14 and are used to speak of the eternal state of the wicked (those who have died without Christ and have only their own human righteousness on which to stand. Human righteousness is always rejected by God. Isa 64:6; Titus 3:5 ).
That the second death does not refer to annihilation is clearly shown by simply comparing Rev 19:20 with Rev 20:10. The beast (antichrist) and the false prophet will have already been in the lake of fire, alive and conscious for a thousand years before Satan and unbelieving humanity join them.
Prior to the Great White throne judgment, the unbeliever who has died will have spend x amount of time in Hades. Luke 16:19-31 relates a story told by Jesus to illustrate this fact. That Hades does not refer to the grave is seen in Rev 20:13-14 where death and Hades are distinquished from each other.
Regarding Hades, Dr. C. I. Scofield wrote the following...
2(16:23) The Greek word hades, like its Hebrew equivalent, sheol is used in two ways: (1) To indicate the condition of the unsaved between death and the great white throne judgment (Rev.20:11-15). Luke 16:23-24 shows that the lost in hades are conscious, possess full use of their faculties, memory, etc, and are in torment. This continues until the final judgment of the lost (2 Pet. 2:9, ASV), when all the unsaved, and hades itself, will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev.20:13-15).
(2) To indicate, in general, the condition of all departed human spirits between death and the resurrection. This usage is found occasionally in the O.T. but rarely, if ever, in the N.T. (cp. Gen.37:35; 42:38; 44:29,31). It should not lead anyone to think that there is a possibility of change from one state to the other after death, for v. 23 shows that when the unsaved man who was in hades saw Abraham and Lazarus, they were ''afar off,'' and v. 26 states that between the two places there is a great gulf fixed, so that no one can pass from one to the other.
Some interpreters think that Eph.4:8-10 indicates that a change in the place of the departed believers occurred at the resurrection of Christ. It is certain that all who are saved go at once into the presence of Christ (2 Cor.5:8; Phil.1:23). Jesus told the penitent thief: ''Today shalt thou be with me in paradise'' (Lk.23:43). Paul was caught up to the third heaven...into paradise'' (2 Cor.12:1-4). Paradise is a place of great joy and bliss, but this bliss is not complete until the spirit is reunited with a glorified body at the resurrection of the just (1 Cor.15:51-54; 1 Th.4:16-17). Though both sheol and hades are sometimes translated ''grave (cp. Gen.37:35; 1 Cor.15:55), they never indicate a burial place but, rather, the state of the spirit after death. See also Hab.2:5, note.
4(2:5) Sheol is, in the O.T., the place to which the dead go. (1) Often, therefore, it is spoken of as the equivalent of the grave, where all human activities cease; the terminus toward which all human lie moves (e.g. Gen.42:38; Job 14:13; Ps.88:3). (2) To the man ''under the sun,'' the natural man who of necessity judges from appearances, sheol seems no more than the grave--the end and total cessation, not only of the activities of life, but also of life itself (Eccl.9:5,10). But (3) Scripture reveals sheol as a place of sorrow (2 Sam. 22:6; Ps.18:5; 116:3), into which the wicked are turned (Ps.9:17), and where they are fully conscious (Isa.14:9-17; Ezek. 32:21). Compare Jon.2:2; what the belly of the great fish was to Jonah, sheol is to those who are therein. The sheol of the O.T. and hades of the N.T. are identical, See Lk. 16:23, note.
[Scofield Reference Edition, footnotes for Luke 16:23 and Habakkuk 2:5, pages 1106, 954.]
After physical death, the believer goes into the presence of the Lord to await the bema seat judgment after the rapture of the church.
After physical death, the unbeliever goes into hades where he awaits resurrection to the Great White Throne judgment and final sentencing to the lake of fire where he will spend the eternal future. There are no second chances for the unbeliever after death.
Hebrews 9:27 'And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment,'
The penalty of sin is spiritual death which also resulted in physical death. Spiritual death refers to a loss of relationship with God in time. God had warned Adam that if he disobeyed Him and used his God given volition to disobey Him by eating of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would immediately die.
Genesis 2:16 'And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, ''From any tree of the garden you may eat freely, 17] but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die.''
In the original Hebrew it actually says '...for in the day that you eat from it dying (spiritually) you will die (physically)'. Adam's spiritual death, his broken relationship with God was instantaneous. But his physical death didn't occur until many hundreds of years later.
Adam and the woman were given the Gospel by the Lord Himself after they ate the fruit and both believed and received eternal life as a result. But, thereafter, as a result of Adam's original sin, every member of the human race is born spiritually dead and will die physically.
The word of God makes it clear that the opportunity whereby man can avail himself of God's offer of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ is limited to his time on this earth. God's purpose and desire for bringing anyone into this life is for the following two reasons. 1) That the unbeliever may use his volition to place his faith in Christ for salvation; and 2) for those who do place their faith in Christ for salvation, that they might make continual decisions to advance to spiritual maturity through the intake and metabolization of Bible doctrine and the application of that doctrine to the circumstances of their life.
From what authoritative source did you extract these fictions
1. of dying spiritually before dying physically;
2. God administering the Gospel to Adam and Eve and their believing
3. the opportunity is limited to the time on earth;
4. our purpose is ONLY to place faith in Jesus; and
5. we are to intake and metabolize Bible doctrine (that didn't even exist)
. . . more of your precepts and doctrine of men?
This is the sort of childish interpretation that is retained and fostered when ignorance is revered and praised as faith. It is forgivable for our ignorant ancient ancestors to have found this a satisfactory explanation . . . but for an intelligent and mature modern civilized human being to do so is simply inexplicable. When no real effort is made to understand our God or our purpose ( in fact is actively discouraged for centuries . . . how can the clay question the potter) . . . and primitive obedience notions are retained without question . . . this sort of arcane and inane rationale is produced. I hate to repeat myself . . but I cannot find my earlier response to this nonsense.
In the Beginning . . . The Process of Human Purpose
The successful development of our soul is the main purpose of human life. The process for achieving our purpose is very simple in principle. The common principle in practically all civilizations and at all stages of their development is self-denial. In the primitive cultures the various forms of denial were motivated by taboos. In the more civilized cultures, denial was seen more directly as the means of delivering the soul from its earthly bonds to make possible a spiritual contact with eternal truth and the deity. We can begin to understand this process if we go back to the beginning and reinterpret our basic experiences as described in Genesis.
There is nothing in our universe that is created fully mature. There is a maturation sequence for everything. This applies to our soul as well. In the story of Genesis, most religious interpreters (like Mike and his mentors) would have us believe God became angry with us because we did not control our animal body and did what we were forbidden to do. This silly idea of God getting angry is anthropopathic nonsense, period . . . let alone over a fruit, symbolic, sexual or otherwise. It is an excellent example of what can be achieved through interpreting childhood as though it were adulthood! The Genesis stories simply capture our primordial consciousness (understanding) of the beginning of human life and chronicle the universal basic experiences (lessons) of human spiritual development.
Basic Experiences. The episodes in Genesis describe our basic experiences. Teaching, at the very basic level, requires experiencing more than explanation. Words have no meaning without some base to relate them to. If you sit down and discuss all the ramifications of touching fire with your toddler, you are wasting your time. An intellect without experience cannot be taught by talking. There are certain basics in life that must be experienced. Once your toddler touches something painfully hot, he will learn what the words "hot" and "burn" mean. Thereafter, when you tell him not to touch the end of a cigarette because it is hot and will burn him, he can relate what you have told him to his basic experience and learn about cigarettes burning without experiencing it. Let's face it, you wouldn't want your child to learn about hot and burn by touching the red-hot electric burner on your stove and receiving third degree burns! On the other hand, your child must learn consequences in some fashion. All of parenthood consists of orchestrating and controlling the experiences of our children so that they learn the basics in the safest and least harmful ways.
It is common knowledge that each and every human being must experience and repeat the entire pattern of human development. Each individual must learn everything for himself with the aid of his parents or society. Thus, the womb existence is a repetition of the evolution into a human being, and the various stages of fetal development mirror that evolution. The fetus even appears to have gills like a fish at one stage. The birth represents the seeding of a soul, the breathing into man's nostrils of the breath of life (Atman, Adamah). Infancy represents Eden, with parents as the all-providing God, and soon through maturity. "As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be."
Humankind as described in Genesis had just been born. He possessed the mere infant of a soul. A suggestion that this infant soul would be punished for its inadequacies is absurd! Naturally, this soul was inadequate to control the animal body it inhabited. In fact, in the more advanced lesson described in the myth of Noah and the flood (where humankind was surely more developed than in Eden) this understanding of youthful ignorance as the source of misbehavior was specifically verbalized, Genesis 8:21,
. . . I will never again curse the ground on account of Man, for the inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth.
Only by interpreting this passage in the way being proposed does it make any sense. Otherwise the passage would be suggesting that God won't punish man BECAUSE he is evil or some such absurdity! Clearly, our species infant consciousness wasn't expected to be able to control its body, because it was the mere seed of a soul. A seed bears no fruit. It must germinate into a full-fledged tree bearing the fruit of eternal life. Therein is probably the explanation of the kingdom of God described by Jesus in the parable of the mustard seed.
Somehow this mere seed of a soul, this minute consciousness, has to become aware of the basic process it must perform to produce eternal life. You don't try to teach calculus to a toddler. You must start with very basic concepts and build upon them. First this soul had to learn that there was something to achieve. Then it had to be given a rudimentary idea of how to achieve it. Since the process for achieving our purpose consists of controlling our animal nature and eliminating certain destructive responses, this basic idea of selective satisfaction of our internal desires had to be conveyed to the infant soul. Left on its own in its animal body, it wouldn't have the faintest idea that there was any need to differentiate between good and bad behavior. To an animal, all responses to ts inner drives are "good."
Without external teaching and an external referent, this infant soul would have learned this erroneous concept from its animal nature, and continued to react without censure and control. In fact, it would devote itself to perfecting means of satisfying all of its animal drives. It would become a truly superior animal. It would kill more efficiently, hate more efficiently, be greedier, be more vengeful, create orgies and debaucheries to increase sexual satisfaction, and so on. Seem familiar?
Forbidden Fruit. A great deal of intellectual effort has been expended in attempts to interpret the significance of the forbidden fruit. All manner of complex inferences have been formulated to explain this "symbolic fruit." There is a proverb dating back to the 14th century which is applicable here: "causae non multiplicandae praeter necessitatem." Essentially, it means don't unnecessarily complicate or if given the choice between explanations use the simplest one. The forbidden fruit is, quite literally, a fruit! The tree is called the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" because from our experience with it we learn that basic distinction.
The forbidden fruit represents our basic lesson in differentiation of behavior and control of our animal body. The expulsion from Eden resulting from forbidden behavior is our base. When we are told that there are certain things we must not do or we will lose eternal life, we can relate back to this experience of losing paradise and understand the basic concept. Thereby the species began the long process of learning the way to achieve eternal life. Genesis 3:22,
. . . the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil! And now perhaps he will put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever!
There are many interpretations of this passage, the most ridiculous version being that God felt man was now a threat who must be cast out of Eden to PREVENT him from getting to the tree of life! The absurdity of the notion that our Creator would fear His own creation is the first, but certainly not the last, tainting of God's motives by man's human weaknesses. That he could be a threat to his Creator is the greatest salve early interpreters could devise for explaining the concept of rejection and expulsion from Eden. It is a typical answer for a primitive consciousness faced with otherwise incomprehensible actions. Our own children experience similar incomprehension whenever they are being taught their "unavoidable" basic experiences.
The inaccuracies, additions to scripture that are not there, precepts and doctrines of men that have no basis in either understanding the nature of God or understanding our purpose, and the sheer arrogance presented as truth is simply not worth the time it would take to address it all. Your failure to answer the above 5 questions should be proof enough of your duplicity in presenting nonsense as if it were authoritative.
You have an exegetical problem and are reading your own presupposition into the plain text of scripture...it is a formulated doctrine, and not entirely your own, which teaches that their is a judgment which is specifically to judge the value of a Christians service to the Lord, and therefore you attempt to make the word 'Bema' conform to fit this doctrine. Rather than encouraging the Christian to persevere, this doctrine threatens his/her future reward at the Bema (seat) based upon good or not so good works. We have no doubt that you'll object to this, but this dispensational doctrine promotes 'merit' rather than 'grace,' and it is clearly contradictory to the written Word of God which demonstrates that 'our work' cannot be both by the Grace of God, and by our own merit. It is apparent that you're confusing your responsibility to the truth with human merit. You have taken the plain text of scripture out of context, resulting in a pretext for your own selfish motivation of reward...or perhaps you simply do not understand the simplicity of The Gospel of Christ. Let your motivation be by the Spirit, not by rewards. The only work in us that merits a reward for our labors is Christ's. The Blessings of The Eternal One bring you understanding...
From what authoritative source did you extract these fictions
1. of dying spiritually before dying physically;
2. God administering the Gospel to Adam and Eve and their believing
3. the opportunity is limited to the time on earth;
4. our purpose is ONLY to place faith in Jesus; and
5. we are to intake and metabolize Bible doctrine (that didn't even exist)
. . . more of your precepts and doctrine of men?
This is the sort of childish interpretation that is retained and fostered when ignorance is revered and praised as faith. It is forgivable for our ignorant ancient ancestors to have found this a satisfactory explanation . . . but for an intelligent and mature modern civilized human being to do so is simply inexplicable. When no real effort is made to understand our God or our purpose ( in fact is actively discouraged for centuries . . . how can the clay question the potter) . . . and primitive obedience notions are retained without question . . . this sort of arcane and inane rationale is produced. I hate to repeat myself . . but I cannot find my earlier response to this nonsense.
In the Beginning . . . The Process of Human Purpose
The successful development of our soul is the main purpose of human life. The process for achieving our purpose is very simple in principle. The common principle in practically all civilizations and at all stages of their development is self-denial. In the primitive cultures the various forms of denial were motivated by taboos. In the more civilized cultures, denial was seen more directly as the means of delivering the soul from its earthly bonds to make possible a spiritual contact with eternal truth and the deity. We can begin to understand this process if we go back to the beginning and reinterpret our basic experiences as described in Genesis.
There is nothing in our universe that is created fully mature. There is a maturation sequence for everything. This applies to our soul as well. In the story of Genesis, most religious interpreters (like Mike and his mentors) would have us believe God became angry with us because we did not control our animal body and did what we were forbidden to do. This silly idea of God getting angry is anthropopathic nonsense, period . . . let alone over a fruit, symbolic, sexual or otherwise. It is an excellent example of what can be achieved through interpreting childhood as though it were adulthood! The Genesis stories simply capture our primordial consciousness (understanding) of the beginning of human life and chronicle the universal basic experiences (lessons) of human spiritual development.
Basic Experiences. The episodes in Genesis describe our basic experiences. Teaching, at the very basic level, requires experiencing more than explanation. Words have no meaning without some base to relate them to. If you sit down and discuss all the ramifications of touching fire with your toddler, you are wasting your time. An intellect without experience cannot be taught by talking. There are certain basics in life that must be experienced. Once your toddler touches something painfully hot, he will learn what the words "hot" and "burn" mean. Thereafter, when you tell him not to touch the end of a cigarette because it is hot and will burn him, he can relate what you have told him to his basic experience and learn about cigarettes burning without experiencing it. Let's face it, you wouldn't want your child to learn about hot and burn by touching the red-hot electric burner on your stove and receiving third degree burns! On the other hand, your child must learn consequences in some fashion. All of parenthood consists of orchestrating and controlling the experiences of our children so that they learn the basics in the safest and least harmful ways.
It is common knowledge that each and every human being must experience and repeat the entire pattern of human development. Each individual must learn everything for himself with the aid of his parents or society. Thus, the womb existence is a repetition of the evolution into a human being, and the various stages of fetal development mirror that evolution. The fetus even appears to have gills like a fish at one stage. The birth represents the seeding of a soul, the breathing into man's nostrils of the breath of life (Atman, Adamah). Infancy represents Eden, with parents as the all-providing God, and soon through maturity. "As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be."
Humankind as described in Genesis had just been born. He possessed the mere infant of a soul. A suggestion that this infant soul would be punished for its inadequacies is absurd! Naturally, this soul was inadequate to control the animal body it inhabited. In fact, in the more advanced lesson described in the myth of Noah and the flood (where humankind was surely more developed than in Eden) this understanding of youthful ignorance as the source of misbehavior was specifically verbalized, Genesis 8:21,
. . . I will never again curse the ground on account of Man, for the inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth.
Only by interpreting this passage in the way being proposed does it make any sense. Otherwise the passage would be suggesting that God won't punish man BECAUSE he is evil or some such absurdity! Clearly, our species infant consciousness wasn't expected to be able to control its body, because it was the mere seed of a soul. A seed bears no fruit. It must germinate into a full-fledged tree bearing the fruit of eternal life. Therein is probably the explanation of the kingdom of God described by Jesus in the parable of the mustard seed.
Somehow this mere seed of a soul, this minute consciousness, has to become aware of the basic process it must perform to produce eternal life. You don't try to teach calculus to a toddler. You must start with very basic concepts and build upon them. First this soul had to learn that there was something to achieve. Then it had to be given a rudimentary idea of how to achieve it. Since the process for achieving our purpose consists of controlling our animal nature and eliminating certain destructive responses, this basic idea of selective satisfaction of our internal desires had to be conveyed to the infant soul. Left on its own in its animal body, it wouldn't have the faintest idea that there was any need to differentiate between good and bad behavior. To an animal, all responses to ts inner drives are "good."
Without external teaching and an external referent, this infant soul would have learned this erroneous concept from its animal nature, and continued to react without censure and control. In fact, it would devote itself to perfecting means of satisfying all of its animal drives. It would become a truly superior animal. It would kill more efficiently, hate more efficiently, be greedier, be more vengeful, create orgies and debaucheries to increase sexual satisfaction, and so on. Seem familiar?
Forbidden Fruit. A great deal of intellectual effort has been expended in attempts to interpret the significance of the forbidden fruit. All manner of complex inferences have been formulated to explain this "symbolic fruit." There is a proverb dating back to the 14th century which is applicable here: "causae non multiplicandae praeter necessitatem." Essentially, it means don't unnecessarily complicate or if given the choice between explanations use the simplest one. The forbidden fruit is, quite literally, a fruit! The tree is called the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" because from our experience with it we learn that basic distinction.
The forbidden fruit represents our basic lesson in differentiation of behavior and control of our animal body. The expulsion from Eden resulting from forbidden behavior is our base. When we are told that there are certain things we must not do or we will lose eternal life, we can relate back to this experience of losing paradise and understand the basic concept. Thereby the species began the long process of learning the way to achieve eternal life. Genesis 3:22,
. . . the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil! And now perhaps he will put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat and live forever!
There are many interpretations of this passage, the most ridiculous version being that God felt man was now a threat who must be cast out of Eden to PREVENT him from getting to the tree of life! The absurdity of the notion that our Creator would fear His own creation is the first, but certainly not the last, tainting of God's motives by man's human weaknesses. That he could be a threat to his Creator is the greatest salve early interpreters could devise for explaining the concept of rejection and expulsion from Eden. It is a typical answer for a primitive consciousness faced with otherwise incomprehensible actions. Our own children experience similar incomprehension whenever they are being taught their "unavoidable" basic experiences.
The inaccuracies, additions to scripture that are not there, precepts and doctrines of men that have no basis in either understanding the nature of God or understanding our purpose, and the sheer arrogance presented as truth is simply not worth the time it would take to address it all. Your failure to answer the above 5 questions should be proof enough of your duplicity in presenting nonsense as if it were authoritative.
The above poster in his usual caustic manner (see entire post) asks the following questions.
From what authoritative source did you extract these fictions
1. of dying spiritually before dying physically;
2. God administering the Gospel to Adam and Eve and their believing
3. the opportunity is limited to the time on earth;
4. our purpose is ONLY to place faith in Jesus; and
5. we are to intake and metabolize Bible doctrine (that didn't even exist)
For the sake of those who genuinely want to know the answers to those questions, I will answer them.
Question #1 is already answered in paragraph #3 of the original post.
Question #2 reflects the posters lack of knowledge concerning very obvious Scripture. Immediately after the fall, the Lord came to Adam and the woman and in their presence, informed Satan as recorded in Genesis 3:15 that the Messiah would come into the world at a future time. Satan was informed that the Messiah would be the seed of the woman and would (on the Cross) bruise the head of Satan. This was a reference to the strategic victory that Jesus would have over Satan as a result of the Cross. Furthermore, as shown in Genesis 3:7 the first thing that Adam and the woman did after eating the fruit was to sew fig leaves together in order to cover themselves. Their eyes having been opened, they knew they were naked and felt ashamed. So in an attempt to get right with God through their own efforts they covered themselves. But this was rejected by God as legalism. God Himself as shown in Genesis 3:10 killed an animal and made garments of skin for the two of them. This was a picture of grace. This was a picture of the work of the future Messiah on the Cross. The killing of the animal, the blood involved, portrayed the death of Christ on the Cross. Yes, the Lord Himself evangelized both Adam and the woman, now called Eve.
Question #3 indicates a lack of comprehension concerning the main point of the original post which is that man's opportunity for salvation is limited to his life on this earth. The question is already answered by the post.
Questions #4 and #5 indicates a lack of knowledge on the part of the poster concerning man's purpose on this earth. God's will is for the unbeliever to be saved through faith in Christ. Acts 16:31 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...'
God's will for the believer after salvation is to grow to spiritual maturity.
2 Peter 3:18 'but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
The believer is not left behind on the earth after salvation to make the world a better place to live. The believer is not left on the earth after salvation to whitewash the devils world. The believer is left on this earth after salvation to grow up spiritually in the devils world and be blessed by God right under the devils nose.
In those days, the antediluvian period of human history, before there was any written Scipture, God communicated directly with man as shown in Genesis 4:6:15. God's word was communicated to man directly by the Lord himself, and through angels, and dreams and visions.
You have an exegetical problem and are reading your own presupposition into the plain text of scripture...it is a formulated doctrine, and not entirely your own, which teaches that their is a judgment which is specifically to judge the value of a Christians service to the Lord, and therefore you attempt to make the word 'Bema' conform to fit this doctrine. Rather than encouraging the Christian to persevere, this doctrine threatens his/her future reward at the Bema (seat) based upon good or not so good works. We have no doubt that you'll object to this, but this dispensational doctrine promotes 'merit' rather than 'grace,' and it is clearly contradictory to the written Word of God which demonstrates that 'our work' cannot be both by the Grace of God, and by our own merit. It is apparent that you're confusing your responsibility to the truth with human merit. You have taken the plain text of scripture out of context, resulting in a pretext for your own selfish motivation of reward...or perhaps you simply do not understand the simplicity of The Gospel of Christ. Let your motivation be by the Spirit, not by rewards. The only work in us that merits a reward for our labors is Christ's. The Blessings of The Eternal One bring you understanding...
To the contrary. You have not read what I said with comprehension. Nor do you understand the scriptures regarding the judgment seat of Christ. I said that works done through the filling of the Holy Spirit are gold, silver, and precious stones and are rewardable at the bema seat judgment, and works that are produced through the old sin nature are wood, hay, and stubble and are burned up.
Salvation is through grace. The believer after salvation is to grow spiritually. As a result of spritual growth, good works will be produced. It is not works that produces spiritual growth, but rather, it is spritual growth which results in good works. I have given two different Scriptures which directly state that the works of the believer are evaluated at the judgment seat of Christ for the purpose of reward (1 Cor 3:12-15; 2 Cor 5:10).
Jesus said in Matt 6:19-21 that the believer is to be motivated, at least in part, by eternal rewards. He commanded the believer to lay up for himself treasure in heaven. So did the apostle Paul in 1 Cor 3:10-15; 9:24-27; and 2 Cor 5:9-10. So did John in 1 John 2:28. And so did Peter in 1 Pet 4:13 and 5:1-4.
Some of the eternal rewards are mentioned in Revelation chapters two and three.
Following is an old thread of mine on eternal rewards.
Seeing the bible through your eyes (or trying to) is about like swallowing camels. I wonder though, what is your main motivation for wanting to be a bible teacher? Only God knows for sure.
I know where Mike got the idea for this thread....it was brought up in another thread. Let me just quote what one poster said that speaks the truth about "the judgment":
Originally posted by Meerkat2
Quote:
I agree Ilene, it says that after this life there is judgment - it seems to me that judgment has been redefined to only mean damnation even though there are 2 separate greek words for these concepts ......
Seeing the bible through your eyes (or trying to) is about like swallowing camels. I wonder though, what is your main motivation for wanting to be a bible teacher? Only God knows for sure.
Heartsong
p.s. Mike, I was thinking about this thread while cleaning the kitchen floor. And I wondered something to myself about you, and thought I'd just ask you straight up: Mike, have you ever given serious consideration that what you teach and believe about God might be wrong or untrue, even though you are very convinced that your view is the truth?
Also, do you have the freedom in Christ to CONSIDER that you might be teaching something false because your motives for being evangelical are not PURE? Or because you have believed the way you have for so long that you are afraid to consider anything else might actually be right.
If you could be shown by God's Spirit that you'd been preaching/teaching a false doctrine, would you have the humility within to allow God to correct you, even though it is very painful to find out that you have been wrong about something very important?
I just thought I'd put those questions out there for you. You can answer them silently - no need to rush to a conclusion - just food for your thoughts.
p.s. Mike, I was thinking about this thread while cleaning the kitchen floor. And I wondered something to myself about you, and thought I'd just ask you straight up: Mike, have you ever given serious consideration that what you teach and believe about God might be wrong or untrue, even though you are very convinced that your view is the truth?
Also, do you have the freedom in Christ to CONSIDER that you might be teaching something false because your motives for being evangelical are not PURE? Or because you have believed the way you have for so long that you are afraid to consider anything else might actually be right.
If you could be shown by God's Spirit that you'd been preaching/teaching a false doctrine, would you have the humility within to allow God to correct you, even though it is very painful to find out that you have been wrong about something very important?
I just thought I'd put those questions out there for you. You can answer them silently - no need to rush to a conclusion - just food for your thoughts.
Wishing you only the best -
Heartsong
To get directly to the point of what you are really asking, the answer is that the word of God is completely clear on the matter that the one who rejects Christ as Savior will spend eternity in the lake of fire.
The above poster in his usual caustic manner (see entire post) asks the following questions.
From what authoritative source did you extract these fictions
1. of dying spiritually before dying physically;
2. God administering the Gospel to Adam and Eve and their believing
3. the opportunity is limited to the time on earth;
4. our purpose is ONLY to place faith in Jesus; and
5. we are to intake and metabolize Bible doctrine (that didn't even exist)
For the sake of those who genuinely want to know the answers to those questions, I will answer them.
Question #1 is already answered in paragraph #3 of the original post.
If it was answered . . . I would not have asked for an authoritative source. The hebrew word מוּת (muwth) means "to die" and never is used to indicate spiritual death. Every one of the deaths is a physical one. So which of your creative mentors (men) has added this usage to scripture?
Quote:
Question #2 reflects the posters lack of knowledge concerning very obvious Scripture. Immediately after the fall, the Lord came to Adam and the woman and in their presence, informed Satan as recorded in Genesis 3:15 that the Messiah would come into the world at a future time. Satan was informed that the Messiah would be the seed of the woman and would (on the Cross) bruise the head of Satan. This was a reference to the strategic victory that Jesus would have over Satan as a result of the Cross. Furthermore, as shown in Genesis 3:7 the first thing that Adam and the woman did after eating the fruit was to sew fig leaves together in order to cover themselves. Their eyes having been opened, they knew they were naked and felt ashamed. So in an attempt to get right with God through their own efforts they covered themselves. But this was rejected by God as legalism. God Himself as shown in Genesis 3:10 killed an animal and made garments of skin for the two of them. This was a picture of grace. This was a picture of the work of the future Messiah on the Cross. The killing of the animal, the blood involved, portrayed the death of Christ on the Cross. Yes, the Lord Himself evangelized both Adam and the woman, now called Eve.
For a literalist . . . you sure make a lot of creative inferences about God's motives and intent for the events that are not written there. So what authoritative source do you have for those?
Quote:
Question #3 indicates a lack of comprehension concerning the main point of the original post which is that man's opportunity for salvation is limited to his life on this earth. The question is already answered by the post.
Again . . . if this outrageous unsupported inference were answered . . . I would not have asked for your authoritative source.
Quote:
Questions #4 and #5 indicates a lack of knowledge on the part of the poster concerning man's purpose on this earth. God's will is for the unbeliever to be saved through faith in Christ. Acts 16:31 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...'
God's will for the believer after salvation is to grow to spiritual maturity.
We agree that faith that Jesus has saved us is the MEANS to achieve our purpose . . . but it is NOT the purpose. So Pot . . . this kettle wants to know what purpose you think God wants us to achieve by this faith? I have indicated my answer for HOW we achieve this spiritual maturity (self-denial) . . . which you ignored and failed to rebut or supply any alternative.
Quote:
2 Peter 3:18 'but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Since there was no Bible at the time . . . what authoritative source did you use to make your outrageous claim that the Bible was necessary (instead of just useful or profitable for instruction)?
Quote:
The believer is not left behind on the earth after salvation to make the world a better place to live. The believer is not left on the earth after salvation to whitewash the devils world. The believer is left on this earth after salvation to grow up spiritually in the devils world and be blessed by God right under the devils nose.
In those days, the antediluvian period of human history, before there was any written Scipture, God communicated directly with man as shown in Genesis 4:6:15. God's word was communicated to man directly by the Lord himself, and through angels, and dreams and visions.
So what changed . . . why would God all of a sudden cease communicating directly . . . especially when He expressly said He has "written in our hearts" and sent a Comforter (the Holy Spirit within) to guide us so that we would need no man to teach us? He assured us that Jesus ( the LIVING Word of God) abideth with us and that we abideth in Him. So where are you getting all this if NOT from the "precepts and doctrines of men" who would presume to teach us?
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