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Acts 2: 17" 'In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19I will show wonders in the heaven above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.'
God bless,
Mercy
In Old Testament times and during the pre-canon period of the church-age there were prophets. With the completion of the New Testament canon around 95 A.D. with the book of Revelation, the gift of prophecy ceased to exist along with a number of other temporary spiritual gifts.
1 Cor. 13:8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away( Prophecy, tongues and knowledge were all miraculous temporary spiritual gifts which had caused a lot of trouble at Corinth). 9] For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10] But when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11] When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12] For now we see in a mirror dimly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13] But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
The phrase 'But when the perfect comes' does not refer to the Second advent of Christ. The word 'perfect' is teleion and is in the Neuter gender and refers to a thing rather than a person. It refers to that which has reached its end, i.e. complete. This is in contrast with 'the partial' - merous - a part, share, portion. Merous is also in the neuter gender.
The 'partial' refers to the method of divine revelation which existed before the New Testament Scriptures were completed. God's revelation to man has been progressive in nature and has reached its fullness with the completion of His written word. In previous dispensations God communicated to man through the spoken word (Isa. 6:8-10); dreams (Gen. 15:12; 31:10-13, 24; Num. 12:6; Dan. 10:9); visions (1 Kings 22:19; Isa. 1:1; 6:1); angelic teaching (Deut. 33:2; Psa. 68:17; Acts 7:53; Gal 3:19);. During the pre-canon period of the church-age, these means of divine revelation along with certain temporary spiritual gifts, continued.
But with the completion of the New Testament canon, we now have God's complete message to us and there is no need for prophets any longer. The purpose of the prophet was to reveal a divine message. The Old and New Testament scriptures are the written word of God and in the New Testament scriptures is the completeness of Gods revelation to man for the church-age.
2 Tim. 3:16 All scripture is God-breathed and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. 17] That the man of God may be perfect (mature) thoroughy furnished unto all good works. The purpose of the New Testament Scriptures is to bring the believer to the point of spiritual maturity.
2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever.
1 Corinthians 13:11 says, 'When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away childish things'. This is Pauls leadin to his admonishment to the Corinthians to grow up as recorded in 1 Cor 14:20 'Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be babes, but in your thinking be mature.' In view is the infancy of the church during the pre-canon era when the Scriptures were not yet complete and believers were maturing spiritually as they received the Word of God a bit at a time by means of the temporary gifts and the letters which were being circulated to the local churches - the 'child' which was to be replaced by the 'mature' - the completed Bible.
1 Corinthians 13:12 'For now we see in a mirror dimly (a reference to the pre-canon period of the church-age when there was no completed New Testament canon), but then face to face (reference to the completed New Testament); now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known. This continues the contrast between not having the completed canon and the time when the New Testament would be complete. Paul had no reason to assume at this time that he wouldn't be alive to see the completion of the New Testament.
Compare James use of the word 'mirror' with the way that Paul uses it in 1 Cor. 13:12.James 1:22 'But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves. 23] For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror; 24] for once he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was. 25] But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man shall be blessed in what he does.
Through study and application of the written word - the New Testament Scriptures, under the enabling ministry of God the Holy Spirit so that the doctrines of the written word of God can be understood, and under the teaching ministry of a prepared pastor/teacher, the believer is able to grow spiritually to the point of maturity.
The temporary spiritual gifts which accompanied the pre-canon period of the church-age are no longer necessary in the post-canon period of the church.
For more complete information, I have provided the following resources for those who are interested:
Moderator cut: deleted it is not the prophesies or the tongues that fade away, it is the PART that fades away . When that which is perfect has come the PART prophesying, the PART tongues fade away.
Why?
Because when that which is perfect has come we will no longer prophesy in PART but we will prophesy FULLY, with full knowledge of what we speak.
I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
In the year 2000 me and my brother had been going to Heritage Christian Center in Denver, Colorado for about 7 months and had gone to a class there concerning baptism. A week later we were baptized there. I remember vividly everything that was said. The deacon as he was helping me through the immersion said, "I baptize you in the name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost." When I rose up out of the water I asked him as loud as I possibly could so that everyone in the place could hear me saying, "What name is that?" His demeanor changed from one of self confidence to growing unease. I felt hatred coming from the pastor who was looking on, one Dennis Leonard. That night I had a very frightening and very disturbing dream about that church, and I knew that God was showing me the wickedness that was going on there behind closed doors. It was yet another opportunity that God had given me to reveal the truth, but I failed to bear fruit, at least in my opinion. Not too long ago that church has since change personnel and has become "The Potters Church." Who ever the new pastor is, I pray the battle for his mind is won irrevocably for The Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth
Acts 2: 17" 'In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.
19I will show wonders in the heaven above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.
20The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.
21And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.'
God bless,
Mercy
First, a distinction must be made between 'the last days' as they pertain to the church, and 'the last days' as they pertain to Israel.
The last days as applied to the church are found in these passages; 2 Tim 3:1-8; Heb. 1:1-2; James 5:3; 2 Pet. 3:1-9, 1Tim 4:1; 1 Pet. 1:5,20; 1 John 2:18; Jude 18 The last days as related to the church began with the advent of Christ.
But there are also last days as applied to Israel; Isa.2:2; Mic. 4:1; Num 24:14; Deut. 31:29; Jer. 23:20; Jer. 30:24; Jer. 49:39; Ezek. 38:16; Dan.2:28; 10:14; Hos. 3:5 The last days as related to Israel are the days which, though begun in sorrow, result in Israel's exaltation and blessing (Jer. 30:4-10) in the Kingdom Age (Isa. 2:2-4; Mic. 4:1-7).
The passage above, Acts 2:17 has nothing to do with the church-age. It is not talking about the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. To understand what Peter was saying with regard to Joel's prophecy, it is necessary to actually study the prophecy as Joel stated it in Joel 2:28.
In Acts 2:17, Peter didn't say that Joel's prophecy had been fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. The details of Joel 2:30-32 compared with Acts 2:19-20 had not been fulfilled yet. Peter was only quoting Joel's prophecy to illustrate what was taking place in his day. When Peter said in Acts 2:16 'But this is that which was spoken through the prophet, Joel,' he was referring to the common element between what was taking place in his time and what was to take place in a later time. The Agent in both events is God the Holy Spirit.
Joel 2:28 states, 'And it shall come about after this'; after this refers to the time when Israel turns to the Lord. Compare with Hos. 3:5 'Afterward the sons of Israel will return and seek the LORD their God and David their King; and they will come trembling to the LORD and to His goodness in the last days.
Shortly after the church is raptured, the tribulation will begin, and as a result of the judgments on Israel, she will turn back to the Lord. When the Lord returns, He will usher in the Millennium. And it is in the Millennial kingdom that the Holy Spirit will be poured out on all flesh. Joel 2:28 continues; '...That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
Compare the following passages which all relate the pouring out of the Spirit with Israel;
Numbers 11:29 But Moses said to him, ''Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the LORD's people were prophets, that the LORD would put His Spirit upon them!''
Isa 32:15 Until the Spirit is poured out upon us from on high, And the wilderness becomes a fertile field And the fertile field is considered as a forest.
Isa 44:3 For I will pour out water on the thirsty land And streams on the dry ground; I will pour out My Spirit on your offspring, And My blessing on your descendants;
Ezek 36:27 ''And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28] ''And you will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.
Ezek 37:14 ''And I will put My Spirit within you, and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it,'' declaes the LORD.' ''
Ezek 39:29 ''And I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,'' declares the LORD GOD.
Zech 12:10 ''And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him, like the bitter weeping over a first-born.''
During the Millennial Kingdom, there will be universal knowledge of the Lord. Isa. 11:9b ...For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.
And so Joel 2:28 continues with, ''And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions. 29] ''And even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.''
In Joel 2:31/Acts 2:20, the 'day of the Lord' is that period of time beginning with the rapture of the church, (1 Thes 4:13-18; 2 Thes 2:1-12; Jn 14:1-4); the 7 year tribulation, (Isa 2:12, 19; 13:9-11, 13; 26:20-21; 34:1-2, 8; Ezek 30:2-3; Joel 1:15; 2:1-3; 2:30-32; 3:12-16, 18; Amos 5:18, 20; Obad vs. 15-17; Zeph 1:14-15, 17; Zech 12:2,9,10; 14:1-5, 8-9, 20; Mal 4:1-3; 1 Thes 5:2-3; 2 Pet 3:8, 10; Mt 24:1-28; Rev 6:1-19:10) and then the return of Jesus Christ to bring in His Millennial Kingdom, [B](Rev 19:11-20:4; Mt 24:29-25:46)[/b], and finally the Great White Throne Judgment and eternity future with a new heaven and a new earth, (Rev 20:7-22:21)
So the prophecy of Joel 2:28, which was quoted by Peter in Acts 2:17 doesn't refer to the beginning of the church-age on the day of Pentecost. Peter simply uses the prophecy to illustrate the comparison of the role of the Holy Spirit in the events of his day and the future time when the Holy Spirit will be poured out on all in the kingdom age.
The following site provides more detailed information.
The temporary spiritual gifts that were given during the pre-canon period of the church-age are no longer extant. The other spiritual gifts remain in effect.
First, a distinction must be made between 'the last days' as they pertain to the church, and 'the last days' as they pertain to Israel.
The last days as applied to the church are found in these passages; 2 Tim 3:1-8; Heb. 1:1-2; James 5:3; 2 Pet. 3:1-9, 1Tim 4:1; 1 Pet. 1:5,20; 1 John 2:18; Jude 18 The last days as related to the church began with the advent of Christ.
But there are also last days as applied to Israel; Isa.2:2; Mic. 4:1; Num 24:14; Deut. 31:29; Jer. 23:20; Jer. 30:24; Jer. 49:39; Ezek. 38:16; Dan.2:28; 10:14; Hos. 3:5 The last days as related to Israel are the days which, though begun in sorrow, result in Israel's exaltation and blessing (Jer. 30:4-10) in the Kingdom Age (Isa. 2:2-4; Mic. 4:1-7).
The passage above, Acts 2:17 has nothing to do with the church-age. It is not talking about the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. To understand what Peter was saying with regard to Joel's prophecy, it is necessary to actually study the prophecy as Joel stated it in Joel 2:28.
In Acts 2:17, Peter didn't say that Joel's prophecy had been fulfilled on the day of Pentecost. The details of Joel 2:30-32 compared with Acts 2:19-20 had not been fulfilled yet. Peter was only quoting Joel's prophecy to illustrate what was taking place in his day. When Peter said in Acts 2:16 'But this is that which was spoken through the prophet, Joel,' he was referring to the common element between what was taking place in his time and what was to take place in a later time. The Agent in both events is God the Holy Spirit.
Joel 2:28 states, 'And it shall come about after this'; after this refers to the time when Israel turns to the Lord. Compare with Hos. 3:5 'Afterward the sons of Israel will return and seek the LORD their God and David their King; and they will come trembling to the LORD and to His goodness in the last days.
Shortly after the church is raptured, the tribulation will begin, and as a result of the judgments on Israel, she will turn back to the Lord. When the Lord returns, He will usher in the Millennium. And it is in the Millennial kingdom that the Holy Spirit will be poured out on all flesh. Joel 2:28 continues; '...That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind;
Compare the following passages which all relate the pouring out of the Spirit with Israel;
Numbers 11:29 But Moses said to him, ''Are you jealous for my sake? Would that all the LORD's people were prophets, that the LORD would put His Spirit upon them!''
Isa 32:15 Until the Spirit is poured out upon us from on high, And the wilderness becomes a fertile field And the fertile field is considered as a forest.
Isa 44:3 For I will pour out water on the thirsty land And streams on the dry ground; I will pour out My Spirit on your offspring, And My blessing on your descendants;
Ezek 36:27 ''And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28] ''And you will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.
Ezek 37:14 ''And I will put My Spirit within you, and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it,'' declaes the LORD.' ''
Ezek 39:29 ''And I will not hide My face from them any longer, for I shall have poured out My Spirit on the house of Israel,'' declares the LORD GOD.
Zech 12:10 ''And I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him, like the bitter weeping over a first-born.''
During the Millennial Kingdom, there will be universal knowledge of the Lord. Isa. 11:9b ...For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.
And so Joel 2:28 continues with, ''And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions. 29] ''And even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.''
In Joel 2:31/Acts 2:20, the 'day of the Lord' is that period of time beginning with the rapture of the church, (1 Thes 4:13-18; 2 Thes 2:1-12; Jn 14:1-4); the 7 year tribulation, (Isa 2:12, 19; 13:9-11, 13; 26:20-21; 34:1-2, 8; Ezek 30:2-3; Joel 1:15; 2:1-3; 2:30-32; 3:12-16, 18; Amos 5:18, 20; Obad vs. 15-17; Zeph 1:14-15, 17; Zech 12:2,9,10; 14:1-5, 8-9, 20; Mal 4:1-3; 1 Thes 5:2-3; 2 Pet 3:8, 10; Mt 24:1-28; Rev 6:1-19:10) and then the return of Jesus Christ to bring in His Millennial Kingdom, [B](Rev 19:11-20:4; Mt 24:29-25:46)[/b], and finally the Great White Throne Judgment and eternity future with a new heaven and a new earth, (Rev 20:7-22:21)
So the prophecy of Joel 2:28, which was quoted by Peter in Acts 2:17 doesn't refer to the beginning of the church-age on the day of Pentecost. Peter simply uses the prophecy to illustrate the comparison of the role of the Holy Spirit in the events of his day and the future time when the Holy Spirit will be poured out on all in the kingdom age.
The following site provides more detailed information.
The temporary spiritual gifts that were given during the pre-canon period of the church-age are no longer extant. The other spiritual gifts remain in effect.
Well mike, contrary to your continuous repetition of the same fallacy, most of the members here disagree with you. You and your teachings and your teachings have been marginalized, you are the fringe cult in this regard.
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Originally Posted by Mike555
The gifts of prophet and Apostleship were designed for the purpose of producing the New Testament Canon and stabilizing the Church before the completion of the Bible.
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Can you prove this?
To be a part of the New Testament Canon, each book must be written by an Apostle or someone closely associated with an Apostle. Mark was associated with Peter, and Luke was associated with Paul. Simply check the authorship of each of the New Testament books.
For the purpose of stabilizing the Church before the completion of the New Testament Canon, the Apostles were given divine authority. 2 Cor. 10:8
Ephesians 2:20 says that the church has been built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. Ephesians 3:5 records that the mystery concerning the church has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit (the Holy Spirit). The word of God indicates that these roles were fulfilled in the first century, and do not continue today.
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A prophet was someone who received and conveyed to others messages or doctrines that came by direct revelation from God before the Canon of Scripture was complete. No one today can proclaim anything that is not already revealed in Scripture. If there were prophets today, it would mean that God didn't convey His complete message to man in the Bible. The Canon of Scripture is closed. God has communicated everything He intends to say to man during the church-age.
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Can you prove this?
Proven above. To be included in the New Testament Scriptures a book had to have been written by an Apostle or someone closely associated with an Apostle. With the completion of Revelation by the Apostle John in 96 A.D., and with his death, there were no more Apostles and no more prophets.
To be an Apostle, one had to have seen the resurrected Christ. Acts 1:22; 1 Cor 9:1.
To be an Apostle, one had to have been taught divine truth by Jesus personally. Gal 1:12; 1 Cor 15:3.
The major Apostles consisted of the group of 12 with Paul being the last chosen among them. It was a closed group. There were others who were minor apostles such as Andronicus and Junias (Rom 16:7), but they were not a part of the closed group of 12 Apostles. With the death of the last of the 12, that being John, there is no one else who can write New Testament Scripture. That means there are no prophets who receive divine revelation from God. That means that all divine revelation from God for the duration of the dispensation of the Church is contained in the New Testament Canon which is closed.
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The spiritual gift of apostleship existed only in the pre-canon period of the church-age. It was necessary for someone to possess absolute authority to establish churches, train pastors, to regulate doctrine, to formulate policy and keep churches doctrinally correct, in addition to writing Scripture.
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And there is apparently no further need to regulate doctrine and to keep churches doctrinally correct since all Christians are today in 100% agreement over doctrine.
Now that the Canon of Scripture is complete and closed, all true doctrine is contained in the Scriptures. While the New Testament Canon was being formed, it was necessary for the Apostles to regulate what was being circulated to the churches to prevent false doctrines from being accepted as true. Paul warned of false prophets ( Acts 13:10; 1 Tim 4:1; 2 Cor. 11:3,4,13,14,15). Yes, of course there are false prophets today, but the Canon of Scripture is complete and the truth is contained therein. It falls to the pastor/teacher who today has the highest authority in the church - only over his own local assembly - to study and accurately teach the Scriptures.
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When the Apostle John died around 96 A.D or so, the gift of apostleship was permanently removed.
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Can you prove this?
Already proven above. One of the requirements to be an Apostle was to have seen the resurrected Christ. John was the last of the group of 12 Apostles to have died, and Paul was the last of the 12 to have been chosen by Christ.
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People who today claim to possess the gifts of Apostleship, prophecy, tongues, miracles, or healing are apostate and reversionistic (back sliden).
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Can you prove this?
Proven by all the above statements. There exist today only false prophets, phony healers and demonic healing. A major purpose of tongues was to act as a sign and a warning to unbelievers of the impending judgment coming on Israel with destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. After A.D. 70, tongues (the real thing) seems to have disappeared.
Revelation 2:2 'I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot endure evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false;
2 Cor.11:13 “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14] And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light, Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.”
The gifts of prophet and Apostleship were designed for the purpose of producing the New Testament Canon and stabilizing the Church before the completion of the Bible.
And yet the Bible never even suggests this.
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A prophet was someone who received and conveyed to others messages or doctrines that came by direct revelation from God before the Canon of Scripture was complete. No one today can proclaim anything that is not already revealed in Scripture. If there were prophets today, it would mean that God didn't convey His complete message to man in the Bible. The Canon of Scripture is closed. God has communicated everything He intends to say to man during the church-age.
A prophet is and always has been someone who receives and conveys to others messages or doctrines that came by direct revelation from God -- whenever He chooses to speak. A living prophet can proclaim anything God tells him to proclaim. If there is a prophet today, it would mean that (a) some of what the New Testament prophets and apostles wrote has been lost over the ages and (b) that God wants us to know what the Christians knew anciently. Your canon of scripture is closed; mine is open. I can't even being so presumptuous as to declare that God has said everything He wants to say.
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Proven above.
Proven nowhere. Stated nowhere in the Bible.
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With the completion of Revelation by the Apostle John in 96 A.D., and with his death, there were no more Apostles and no more prophets.
For a long time, that was indeed true. It's not any more, though. As part of His ministry, Jesus Christ established His Church. Over the years, men changed it. It has been re-established today.
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The spiritual gift of apostleship existed only in the pre-canon period of the church-age. It was necessary for someone to possess absolute authority to establish churches, train pastors, to regulate doctrine, to formulate policy and keep churches doctrinally correct, in addition to writing Scripture.
And the need continues to exist today.
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Now that the Canon of Scripture is complete and closed, all true doctrine is contained in the Scriptures. While the New Testament Canon was being formed, it was necessary for the Apostles to regulate what was being circulated to the churches to prevent false doctrines from being accepted as true.
Ephesians 4:11-14 states And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive...
Or, in plain, straightforward, modern-day English:
"And He (Jesus Christ) appointed apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. His purpose in doing so was to perfect His followers, to minister to them and to teach them. These were to remain in place until all of us are unified in the faith and in our knowledge of the Son of God, enabling us to grow to maturity in the Lord. Otherwise, we will continue to be like children in the gospel, persuaded first one way and then another, and unable to distinguish between true and false doctrines, being subject to the teachings of those who are crafty and who desire to deceive us."
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Paul warned of false prophets
Indeed he did. He did not warn against true prophets, though, because he recognized how important they would be to the process of maintaining pure doctrine.
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The Canon of Scripture is complete and the truth is contained therein. It falls to the pastor/teacher who today has the highest authority in the church - only over his own local assembly - to study and accurately teach the Scriptures.
Yes, I'm afraid that in most churches that is the case. Unfortunately, there is a great deal of disagreement between all of the world's pastors and teachers -- which is why prophets and apostles are as necessary now as they were in the early days of the Church.
Oh my goodness! All that work and you proved absolutely nothing except that you have decided you no longer want to hear what God is saying.
A prophet is and always has been someone who receives and conveys to others messages or doctrines that came by direct revelation from God -- whenever He chooses to speak. A living prophet can proclaim anything God tells him to proclaim. If there is a prophet today, it would mean that (a) some of what the New Testament prophets and apostles wrote has been lost over the ages and (b) that God wants us to know what the Christians knew anciently. Your canon of scripture is closed; mine is open. I can't even being so presumptuous as to declare that God has said everything He wants to say.
Oh my goodness! All that work and you proved absolutely nothing except that you have decided you no longer want to hear what God is saying.
You are aware that the no person can produce enough proof to satisfy a skeptic. So to expect someone to provide enough "proof" is impossible.
And it would be the same for anyone to expect "proof" from you....unless you actually think you can. I respect the concept of believing in something without proof, and I hope that sentiment is mutual.
Just the same, the Bible never even suggests the need (the emphesis is on the need) for anything additional either.
In fact John ( who of anyone that admitted there was more available that could be written) revealed that what was written at the time was enough.
The question today really rests on this, did Jesus through the Bible answer this question:
A prophet is and always has been someone who receives and conveys to others messages or doctrines that came by direct revelation from God -- whenever He chooses to speak. A living prophet can proclaim anything God tells him to proclaim. If there is a prophet today, it would mean that (a) some of what the New Testament prophets and apostles wrote has been lost over the ages and (b) that God wants us to know what the Christians knew anciently. Your canon of scripture is closed; mine is open. I can't even being so presumptuous as to declare that God has said everything He wants to say.
Proven nowhere. Stated nowhere in the Bible.
For a long time, that was indeed true. It's not any more, though. As part of His ministry, Jesus Christ established His Church. Over the years, men changed it. It has been re-established today.
And the need continues to exist today.
Ephesians 4:11-14 states And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive...
Or, in plain, straightforward, modern-day English:
"And He (Jesus Christ) appointed apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. His purpose in doing so was to perfect His followers, to minister to them and to teach them. These were to remain in place until all of us are unified in the faith and in our knowledge of the Son of God, enabling us to grow to maturity in the Lord. Otherwise, we will continue to be like children in the gospel, persuaded first one way and then another, and unable to distinguish between true and false doctrines, being subject to the teachings of those who are crafty and who desire to deceive us."
Indeed he did. He did not warn against true prophets, though, because he recognized how important they would be to the process of maintaining pure doctrine.
Yes, I'm afraid that in most churches that is the case. Unfortunately, there is a great deal of disagreement between all of the world's pastors and teachers -- which is why prophets and apostles are as necessary now as they were in the early days of the Church.
Oh my goodness! All that work and you proved absolutely nothing except that you have decided you no longer want to hear what God is saying.
In response to this statement...
Originally Posted by Mike555
''The gifts of prophet and Apostleship were designed for the purpose of producing the New Testament Canon and stabilizing the Church before the completion of the Bible.''
You replied with this...
''And yet the Bible never even suggests this.''
Every book of the New Testament was written by one of the 12 Apostles or someone closely associated with an Apostle. That was one of the criteria for New Testament Canonicity. Mark was not an Apostle but was associated with Peter, and Luke was associated with Paul. These Apostles are dead and no one alive today is associated with any of the long since dead 12 Apostles who were the human authors of the New Testament. .
For the books to be accepted as Canonical, they had to be universally received by the local churches as authentic as of the time of their writing.
Additionally, they had to be consistent with the doctrine that the Church already possessed - the Old Testament and Apostolic teaching.
Each book had to have provided evidence, both internally and externally, of being divinely inspired. The spiritual gift of discernment was used to deternime Canonicity (1 Cor. 12:10).
Each book had to be recognized as Canonical in the catalogues of the Church Fathers and must be used by those who had the figt of pastor/teacher.
To be Canonical, each of the New Testament Epistles had to contain exhortation to public exegesis of the Word...
Col. 4:16 'And when this letter is read among you, have it also read in the church of the Laodiceans; and you, for your part read my letter that is coming from Laodicea.
1 Thess. 5:27 I adjure you by the Lord to have this letter read to all the brethren.
1 Tim 4:13 Until I come, give attention to the public reading of Scripture, to exhortation and teaching.
Rev. 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.
2 Peter 3:15 'And regard the patience of our Lord to be salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16] as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and the unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
The purpose of the Apostle and prophets was to communicate doctrine to the church during the time that the New Testament Scriptures were still being produced. With the completion of those Scriptures, it now falls to the pastor and evangelists to teach God's word. The vast majority of Christians will never advance to spiritual maturity and will remain spiritual infants.
Nothing in God's word has been lost. Nothing needs to be reintroduced. Many doctrines of the word of God were ignored and forgotten about during the dark ages but began to be recovered beginning with the Remormation. But none of the contents of the word of God were ever lost. God has preserved His word down though history. There are no prophets today giving any further revelation from God. God's completed message is contained in the Bible. Not the book of Mormon or any other book.
And the apostasy in the churches began very soon after the church-age began. The fact that many pastors today do not fulfill their function as pastor/teachers is between them and God. There are no prophets or Apostles riding shotgun over them to keep things in line.
Since you are a Mormon, you doubtless will disagree with all of this. Religion was introduced into the world by Satan to confuse the issue and obscure the truth so that man might be led astray.
But even many Christians will not recognize the truth that there are no more prophets, Apostles, tongues, or people with the spiritual gift of healing.
Most people will believe what they want to believe regardless of the facts. But there are those who care more about the truth then about what makes them feel good.
Oh! PS. I care very much about what the word of God says. And I always will.
You are aware that the no person can produce enough proof to satisfy a skeptic. So to expect someone to provide enough "proof" is impossible.
And it would be the same for anyone to expect "proof" from you....unless you actually think you can. I respect the concept of believing in something without proof, and I hope that sentiment is mutual.
Just the same, the Bible never even suggests the need (the emphesis is on the need) for anything additional either.
In fact John ( who of anyone that admitted there was more available that could be written) revealed that what was written at the time was enough.
The question today really rests on this, did Jesus through the Bible answer this question:
Katzpur you need to understand that the same evaluation of your's can be echoed about your position ......
" Oh my goodness! All that work and you proved absolutely nothing except that you have decided you no longer want to hear what God is saying. "
You can't convince anyone who does not want to be convinced.
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