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Enow, perhaps you shouldn't ask questions you don't want answers to.
I think it is a good question.
In my travels, it seems to me that a great majority of churches refuse to use Bible criteria when selecting their leadership [my church included].
And while the Bible teaches us about these five ministries very few churches have them.
I have seen many churches that are 100% evangelists, recruiters. While recruitment is good, what happens next? It is good to be born again, is that the end of church ministry?
The Bible could have ended at Romans if that were the case. But lo we were given three books of NT doctrine. Not just one on recruitment.
Christians need to get into the rest of the doctrinal books written to them, and into using all five ministries.
It's more than a good question. It's an excellent question. Trouble is, Enow didn't like my answer and proceeded to launch a rather ugly attack on my Church (which has since been deleted). That was the reason for my response, which you quoted.
Christ did not establish specific offices in His Church because He had nothing better to do. Paul was very clear in stating that the original organization of the Church was to remain in effect until all believers came into a unity of faith. Since we have continued, in the years since Christ's death, to become less and less unified, it should be clear to any unbiased reader of the scriptures, that Paul's warning about what the consequences would be otherwise (i.e without the organization and offices as originally established) was well-founded and indeed prophetic. Without living prophets and apostles, it would be impossible to maintain doctrinal purity and even the most sincere Christian would find it difficult to know who to trust and who to be cautious of.
I'm always amazed to see how many Christians blithely dismiss the need for any offices other than evangelists, pastors and teachers. They insist that once laid, "the foundation would never have to be laid again," and ignore the fact that the prophets and apostles Jesus called had very specifical roles to play and that there would always be a need for these offices. The written words of Christ's chosen apostles is not sufficient. If they were, Christianity today would not be in the position it's in today. Imagine if there had never been a period of time since Christ's death when there was not someone all Christians could look to as God's spokesman, a prophet like Moses or Abraham or Peter (yes, he was a prophet). We would all look to this individual to clarify scripture, to guide us in understanding it and to tell us how God wanted us to incorporate the words of inspired men who lived 2000 years ago in our lives today.
Roger Williams, pastor of the first Baptist Church to be founded in America, once stated, "[There is] no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any church ordinance, nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the great head of the Church, for whose coming I am seeking."
Enow objected to the fact that I believe new apostles have been sent. I'm not going to belabor the point, but whenever a question about the organizational structure of Christian Churches today is asked, people need to know that they're going to hear from me on the subject, and that they had better respond in some way other than by throwing mud.
It's more than a good question. It's an excellent question. Trouble is, Enow didn't like my answer and proceeded to launch a rather ugly attack on my Church (which has since been deleted). That was the reason for my response, which you quoted.
Christ did not establish specific offices in His Church because He had nothing better to do. Paul was very clear in stating that the original organization of the Church was to remain in effect until all believers came into a unity of faith. Since we have continued, in the years since Christ's death, to become less and less unified, it should be clear to any unbiased reader of the scriptures, that Paul's warning about what the consequences would be otherwise (i.e without the organization and offices as originally established) was well-founded and indeed prophetic. Without living prophets and apostles, it would be impossible to maintain doctrinal purity and even the most sincere Christian would find it difficult to know who to trust and who to be cautious of.
I'm always amazed to see how many Christians blithely dismiss the need for any offices other than evangelists, pastors and teachers. They insist that once laid, "the foundation would never have to be laid again," and ignore the fact that the prophets and apostles Jesus called had very specifical roles to play and that there would always be a need for these offices. The written words of Christ's chosen apostles is not sufficient. If they were, Christianity today would not be in the position it's in today. Imagine if there had never been a period of time since Christ's death when there was not someone all Christians could look to as God's spokesman, a prophet like Moses or Abraham or Peter (yes, he was a prophet). We would all look to this individual to clarify scripture, to guide us in understanding it and to tell us how God wanted us to incorporate the words of inspired men who lived 2000 years ago in our lives today.
Roger Williams, pastor of the first Baptist Church to be founded in America, once stated, "[There is] no regularly constituted church of Christ on earth, nor any person authorized to administer any church ordinance, nor can there be until new apostles are sent by the great head of the Church, for whose coming I am seeking."
Enow objected to the fact that I believe new apostles have been sent. I'm not going to belabor the point, but whenever a question about the organizational structure of Christian Churches today is asked, people need to know that they're going to hear from me on the subject, and that they had better respond in some way other than by throwing mud.
I have no intent to throw mud.
For the most part I agree with your stance.
Very few, a tiny portion of today's Mainstream Christians care about the Bible or what God has to say about any topic.
Itchy ears hire salesmen to preach doctrines of man's choosing. Hirelings do not stand for God, they are professionals seeking only to be paid salary.
It's more than a good question. It's an excellent question. Trouble is, Enow didn't like my answer and proceeded to launch a rather ugly attack on my Church (which has since been deleted). That was the reason for my response, which you quoted.
Enow objected to the fact that I believe new apostles have been sent. I'm not going to belabor the point, but whenever a question about the organizational structure of Christian Churches today is asked, people need to know that they're going to hear from me on the subject, and that they had better respond in some way other than by throwing mud.
It was the effectiveness of your five fold ministry within your church that was being addressed when the foundation of that church was seen by me as being askewed from the beginning.
However, since it was prophesied that the falling away from the faith will occur and has been in these latter days, I can see how even the five fold ministry in any church will not stop apostasy from coming in as movements after movements will carry people away from the faith we are to have in Jesus Christ.
So if your church had Promise Keepers movement in it or had experienced the "holy laughter" movement in it, that proves your five fold ministries within your church is sleeping on the job. Let that serve as a red flag for you to go to Jesus Christ in prayer for wisdom and discernment in these latter days because the falling away of the faith has been prophesied to be so bad that only a few will find it.
God addressed each church in Revelation, and in spite of the good works found within, God still had something to say in regards to reproofs and the consequences was if they did not repent, they would be cast into the bed of the great tribulation. He did exhorted a few to hold unto what they have heard from the beginning so that they may be found worthy to escape the hour of trial that shall try all upon the earth...which is the great tribulation. I doubt very much that the Latter Day Saints are one of the few churchs holding unto what they have heard from the beginning since they came up with something new that was not heard from the beginning...which brought about new books added to the Bible.
So in practicality: no church should be resting in their laurels of their five fold ministries in the latter days but I doubt that will change which would explain why only a few believers will find that faith in Jesus Christ to be found ready to go as the chaste bride.
So let us be clear: I am not recruiting anyone for my church or for my denomenation because I represent none of them. I am contending for the faith as God enables me so that those that hear and love Him and His words will discern the practises within their church so that they as individual believers will have the words of their mouths and the meditation of their hearts to be acceptable in His sight, Our Lord & Redeemer...even if the church's words and deeds are not.
God is judging every believer individually and He addressed some of the practises in the churches for the churches to repent of, but if the churches will not, those that hear Him should repent of them in standing apart from the church and her errant practises...even if it means leaving the church in having that personal reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ.
So let us not be so quick to be offended by the standing of any church since they are all required to be self examining and reproving that which is an offense to Him. Granted, churches will fail to do this out of pride, but those that hear His voice and seek to follow Him, with His help, will not allow pride in their church to interfere with their desire to follow Jesus.
It was the effectiveness of your five fold ministry within your church that was being addressed when the foundation of that church was seen by me as being askewed from the beginning.
First off, I have never heard of the "five fold ministry" and had to google it to find out what it was. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was not organized according to the pattern outlined in Ephesians 4 because Joseph Smith got out his Bible and read up on a "five fold ministry." When Jesus Christ re-established His Church, it was organized in exactly the as He had originally established it -- which makes perfect sense.
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However, since it was prophesied that the falling away from the faith will occur and has been in these latter days, I can see how even the five fold ministry in any church will not stop apostasy from coming in as movements after movements will carry people away from the faith we are to have in Jesus Christ.
The prophesy was not that there would be a falling away (an "apostasia") in the latter days. The falling away was starting to occur even as the prophesies were being uttered.
Even in Old Testament times, God's prophets warned that the time would come when the word of the Lord would not be found anywhere in the world.
In Amos 8:11-12, we are told, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord; And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it."
Contrary to most other Christian denominations, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints contends that this prophesy did, in fact, come to pass, and that shortly after the deaths of Christ's Apostles, the Church He personally established ceased to exist in its original form -- in other words that there was, for many, many years, a famine in the world "a famine of hearing the words of the Lord" and that, regardless of where one might wander in search of God's word, it could not be found.
Throughout the New Testament, the Apostles also warned that this was to happen. Paul seemed particularly concerned about the infant Church and frequently voiced his concerns to the early Christians. Among his statements to Christ's followers, are these:
Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel…
2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears…
Paul made it absolutely clear that (1)the flock would not only be attacked, it would not be spared, (2) Christ would not return to the earth until this universal "falling away" or "apostasy" had taken place, (3) these things were already beginning to take place as he spoke, and (4) the doctrines taught by the Savior would, in time, cease to endure.
During the first few centuries after the Savior and His Apostles died, Christianity began to evolve into something quite different than it had originally been. While the Apostles, who assumed leadership over the Church after Christ's death, undoubtedly did everything within their power to preserve and strengthen the Church, there were, unfortunately, other forces at work. Within a matter of just a few years following their deaths, the simplicity and purity of Christ’s teachings had begun to undergo some rather significant changes. Greek philosophical thought corrupted such basic doctrines as the true nature of God and man’s relationship to Him, as learned but uninspired men sought to make this new religion more acceptable to the masses, and especially to the non-Jewish convert. Finally, and probably most important of all, God withdrew His priesthood from the earth. What did this mean? It meant that there was no one left who held the authority to act in His name. In short, there were no more apostles and prophets. With God no longer directing the affairs of His Church, man was on his own. Through debate and discussion, by vote and by compromise, what we now know as “mainstream†Christianity emerged. Religious scholars describe this as "The Helenization of Christianity." We call it simply, "The Great Apostasy."
Does this mean that Christianity ceased to exist entirely? No. There have been devout Christians ever since the time of Christ. But the "fullness" of His gospel was taken from the earth, just as the ancient prophets said it would be. Paul also prophesied that the gospel would be restored prior to the Second Coming of Christ. Obviously, we believe this, too, has taken place.
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So if your church had Promise Keepers movement in it or had experienced the "holy laughter" movement in it, that proves your five fold ministries within your church is sleeping on the job.
Promise Keepers? Holy Laughter? Uh... again, those terms are completely foreign to the Latter-day Saints.
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Let that serve as a red flag for you to go to Jesus Christ in prayer for wisdom and discernment in these latter days because the falling away of the faith has been prophesied to be so bad that only a few will find it.
The establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints began with a prayer for wisdom on the part of a fourteen-year-old boy who wanted nothing more than to know which church to join. In his own words:
"My mind at times was greatly excited, the cry and tumult were so great and incessant. The Presbyterians were most decided against the Baptists and Methodists, and used all the powers of both reason and sophistry to prove their errors, or, at least, to make the people think they were in error. On the other hand, the Baptists and Methodists in their turn were equally zealous in endeavoring to establish their own tenets and disprove all others.
In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?
While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.
At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs, that is, ask of God. I at length came to the determination to “ask of God,†concluding that if he gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would give liberally, and not upbraid, I might venture.
So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally."
Joseph Smith did exactly what you're saying is necessary, and yet you hold him in contempt.
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I doubt very much that the Latter Day Saints are one of the few churchs holding unto what they have heard from the beginning since they came up with something new that was not heard from the beginning...which brought about new books added to the Bible.
And just how do you know what was heard from the beginning? Were you there? Just look at the four gospel accounts of Jesus' life and ministry. Each one presents the story from a slightly different perspective, but they are all very similar and none of them really particularly comprehensive. None of them was written within even a few short years after Jesus' death and resurrection. Do you honestly believe that in a three-year period of time, Jesus said nothing of value that was not recorded in those four short books? He preached His gospel, probably every day for three years. The gospels don't cover a fraction of what He could have said in nearly a thousand days of His ministry. What about His forty-day ministry following His resurrection? We have absolutely nothing of what He taught during that time. And look at Paul's epistles. They mention other of his epistles, which his audience was undoubtedly familiar with and considered inspired, but we don't have them today. They aren't in the Bible for us to read.
People assume that we "came up with something new that was not heard from the beginning." We didn't. We teach what was heard in the beginning. We teach what Jesus Christ taught, but which didn't find its way into the pages of the Bible or what was later misinterpreted by human beings who had been left without prophets and apostles to lead them in Christ's absence. Our Savior really did establish a Church. Men changed it. He has re-established it and it exists today. Yes, it has some doctrines that are not in the Bible, but we believe they were doctrines which were taught and believed in the ancient Church. None of our doctrines contradict anything in the Bible, when correctly understood. They answer questions which simply cannot be resolved by an appeal to the Bible only -- which Joseph Smith came to realize in studying the Bible looking for them.
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So let us be clear: I am not recruiting anyone for my church or for my denomenation because I represent none of them. I am contending for the faith as God enables me so that those that hear and love Him and His words will discern the practises within their church so that they as individual believers will have the words of their mouths and the meditation of their hearts to be acceptable in His sight, Our Lord & Redeemer...even if the church's words and deeds are not.
And let it also be clear that I am merely responding to questions you have posed and statements you have made. I know you don't like what it is I say, but in all the time I've been posting on City-Data, I have never started a thread promoting my religion, nor have I ever started a thread attacking anybody else's beliefs. I will, however, always defend what I believe, and whenever there is a thread which lends itself to a discussion of my beliefs, I will likely contribute.
First off, I have never heard of the "five fold ministry" and had to google it to find out what it was. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was not organized according to the pattern outlined in Ephesians 4 because Joseph Smith got out his Bible and read up on a "five fold ministry." When Jesus Christ re-established His Church, it was organized in exactly the as He had originally established it -- which makes perfect sense.
The above quote is a different response than what was earlier given.
This was your post #10 in reply to the OP.
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All of these exist in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Church as a whole is led by a prophet and twelve Apostles, each of whom we believe to have been called of God. The organization established by Jesus Christ shortly before His death ceased to exist when the prophets and apostles He chose were martyred. He has re-established the Church He originally founded, along with the organization described by Paul in Ephesians 4.
Everybody can make mistakes, including me. We all have at one time or another, jumped the gun in zealously replying without thinking.
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The prophesy was not that there would be a falling away (an "apostasia") in the latter days. The falling away was starting to occur even as the prophesies were being uttered.
I know that there has been a falling away even in the early church days, but this falling away is significantly meant to be huge in the latter days whereas only a few will be able to find the faith.
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Even in Old Testament times, God's prophets warned that the time would come when the word of the Lord would not be found anywhere in the world.
In Amos 8:11-12, we are told, "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord; And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it."
Contrary to most other Christian denominations, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints contends that this prophesy did, in fact, come to pass, and that shortly after the deaths of Christ's Apostles, the Church He personally established ceased to exist in its original form -- in other words that there was, for many, many years, a famine in the world "a famine of hearing the words of the Lord" and that, regardless of where one might wander in search of God's word, it could not be found.
This is propaganda in exalting your denomenation above all others.
The prophesy wasn't that the Word of the Lord would not be available: the famine was in the hearing of the words of the Lord. When religionists add to the words of the Lord like the Catholic catechism, then the simplicity of the Gospel has ceased. They have His words, but because of the extra, they cannot hear His words to take them at their meaning. Believers in catholicism wind up labouring in unbelief in the works of catholicism, voiding faith in the Gospel of grace that they had heard.
I suspect that the Church of the Latter Day Saints will be the same, seeing how their identity stems from the extra books.
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Throughout the New Testament, the Apostles also warned that this was to happen. Paul seemed particularly concerned about the infant Church and frequently voiced his concerns to the early Christians. Among his statements to Christ's followers, are these:
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Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…
Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel…
2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears…
Paul made it absolutely clear that (1)the flock would not only be attacked, it would not be spared, (2) Christ would not return to the earth until this universal "falling away" or "apostasy" had taken place, (3) these things were already beginning to take place as he spoke, and (4) the doctrines taught by the Savior would, in time, cease to endure.
Paul is equally asserting that the doctrines and the word of the Lord will be present, but it is the extra that is causing people to have itchy ears. They will not endure what they have heard from the beginning.
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During the first few centuries after the Savior and His Apostles died,
The Saviour had died, but He is risen, but I am sure you had meant that.
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Christianity began to evolve into something quite different than it had originally been. While the Apostles, who assumed leadership over the Church after Christ's death, undoubtedly did everything within their power to preserve and strengthen the Church, there were, unfortunately, other forces at work. Within a matter of just a few years following their deaths, the simplicity and purity of Christ’s teachings had begun to undergo some rather significant changes. Greek philosophical thought corrupted such basic doctrines as the true nature of God and man’s relationship to Him, as learned but uninspired men sought to make this new religion more acceptable to the masses, and especially to the non-Jewish convert.
Propaganda. That would place the apostles in a very bad light as leaders. Jesus Christ commanded them to make disciples so this generalization of how bad things were is discounting the fact that God is the One ministering and HE would insure those that seek Him will find Him as that is a promise from God.
Since Paul had left instructions & corrections in his letters to the early churches, and the believers that loved Him and His words were being read and upkept at Antioch where the disciples met, the King James Bible holds the true meaning of God's words.
Here below is a scriptural proof of the keeping of His words.
Finally, and probably most important of all, God withdrew His priesthood from the earth. What did this mean? It meant that there was no one left who held the authority to act in His name. In short, there were no more apostles and prophets. With God no longer directing the affairs of His Church, man was on his own. Through debate and discussion, by vote and by compromise, what we now know as “mainstream” Christianity emerged. Religious scholars describe this as "The Helenization of Christianity." We call it simply, "The Great Apostasy."
Propaganda in setting the Church of Latter Day Saints as the Church.
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Does this mean that Christianity ceased to exist entirely? No. There have been devout Christians ever since the time of Christ. But the "fullness" of His gospel was taken from the earth, just as the ancient prophets said it would be. Paul also prophesied that the gospel would be restored prior to the Second Coming of Christ. Obviously, we believe this, too, has taken place.
The "fullness" of His gospel was taken from the earth by the extras. Peel away the extras and you have the fullness of the Gospel of grace.
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Promise Keepers? Holy Laughter? Uh... again, those terms are completely foreign to the Latter-day Saints.
- Promise Keepers also has no problem involving Mormons in its meetings. While Mormon headquarters has no official position on Promise Keepers, many Mormon men have and continue to participate in Promise Keepers. Local Mormon leaders generally agree with Promise Keepers seven promises and have privately praised the movement and commented on how attendance "has been a life changing experience for some of the Mormon men." Promise Keepers has given at least one presentation to a Reorganized Mormon church that was "very high" on the Promise Keepers and "would no doubt be going with it" since they had "no problem with it at all. ... It's a wonderful program. The men at my church will be participating." (Reported in the May/June 1995, PsychoHeresy Awareness Letter, "Promise Keepers, Catholics, and Mormons ... Together," pp. 1,3.)
[Chip Rawlings, a local Los Angeles lawyer and leader in the Palos Verdes Stake (a group of Mormon congregations), has publicly urged members to participate in PK. PK's seven promises are "like something straight out of the men's priesthood manual for the [Mormon] church," he told the L.A. Times (5/6/95 article). It is interesting that Promise Keepers, while claiming to preach a non-doctrinal gospel at its rallies, finds acceptance even among Mormon leaders, whose theology and Christology are aberrant (Mormons view Jesus as Satan's brother, the product of the Father's physical intercourse with Mary, who then attained Godhood as had His Father before Him), and Roman Catholic clergy, who insist that true salvation rests only in the sacraments of the Church.]
So. Do you see Jesus as Satan's brother, the product of the Father's physical intercourse with Mary, who then attained Godhood as had His Father before Him? Sounds like extras to me.
As for holy laughter, I have found out today that loud laughter is a sin in mormonism so it looks like your denomenation was spared that phenomenon from taking root.
But Mormon men are involved in the Promise Keepers movement.
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The establishment of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints began with a prayer for wisdom on the part of a fourteen-year-old boy who wanted nothing more than to know which church to join. In his own words:
"My mind at times was greatly excited, the cry and tumult were so great and incessant. The Presbyterians were most decided against the Baptists and Methodists, and used all the powers of both reason and sophistry to prove their errors, or, at least, to make the people think they were in error. On the other hand, the Baptists and Methodists in their turn were equally zealous in endeavoring to establish their own tenets and disprove all others.
In the midst of this war of words and tumult of opinions, I often said to myself: What is to be done? Who of all these parties are right; or, are they all wrong together? If any one of them be right, which is it, and how shall I know it?
While I was laboring under the extreme difficulties caused by the contests of these parties of religionists, I was one day reading the Epistle of James, first chapter and fifth verse, which reads: If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man than this did at this time to mine. It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart. I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did; for how to act I did not know, and unless I could get more wisdom than I then had, I would never know; for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible.
At length I came to the conclusion that I must either remain in darkness and confusion, or else I must do as James directs, that is, ask of God. I at length came to the determination to “ask of God,” concluding that if he gave wisdom to them that lacked wisdom, and would give liberally, and not upbraid, I might venture.
So, in accordance with this, my determination to ask of God, I retired to the woods to make the attempt. It was on the morning of a beautiful, clear day, early in the spring of eighteen hundred and twenty. It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally."
Joseph Smith did exactly what you're saying is necessary, and yet you hold him in contempt.
And yet his encounter was with an "angel": not God. An angel that came with another gospel.
Many have sought God in the past so how come they did not have an angel visit them with the same gold tablet promoting another gospel of which you believe was the original gospel?
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And just how do you know what was heard from the beginning? Were you there?
1 John 2:18Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. 21I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
Satan is not a brother to Jesus Christ.
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Just look at the four gospel accounts of Jesus' life and ministry. Each one presents the story from a slightly different perspective, but they are all very similar and none of them really particularly comprehensive. None of them was written within even a few short years after Jesus' death and resurrection. Do you honestly believe that in a three-year period of time, Jesus said nothing of value that was not recorded in those four short books? He preached His gospel, probably every day for three years. The gospels don't cover a fraction of what He could have said in nearly a thousand days of His ministry. What about His forty-day ministry following His resurrection? We have absolutely nothing of what He taught during that time. And look at Paul's epistles. They mention other of his epistles, which his audience was undoubtedly familiar with and considered inspired, but we don't have them today. They aren't in the Bible for us to read.
People assume that we "came up with something new that was not heard from the beginning." We didn't. We teach what was heard in the beginning. We teach what Jesus Christ taught, but which didn't find its way into the pages of the Bible or what was later misinterpreted by human beings who had been left without prophets and apostles to lead them in Christ's absence. Our Savior really did establish a Church. Men changed it. He has re-established it and it exists today. Yes, it has some doctrines that are not in the Bible, but we believe they were doctrines which were taught and believed in the ancient Church. None of our doctrines contradict anything in the Bible, when correctly understood. They answer questions which simply cannot be resolved by an appeal to the Bible only -- which Joseph Smith came to realize in studying the Bible looking for them.
Remember that His Church is one where the gates of hell shall not prevail against it so to declare that for a time on earth, the fullness of the Gospel had ceased is a lie just to give credence to Mormonism.
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And let it also be clear that I am merely responding to questions you have posed and statements you have made.
I understand that but out of love for you to declare the truth, it is time to take pause and YOU go to Jesus Christ in prayer for discernment & wisdom. If you believe God did that for Joseph Smith, then why don't you believe that He will do this to you?
What I find ironic about the whole affair with Joseph Smith is that for Mormonism to have any validation by God in according to His word, there should be two or three witnesses to establish that truth. His word says so.
When correcting a brother in a trespass:
Matthew 18:16But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or threewitnessesevery word may be established.
1 Timothy 5:19Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or threewitnesses.
Hebrews 10:28He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or threewitnesses:
Or to establish a word like the extra books of Mormonism.
2 Corinthians 13:1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or threewitnesses shall every word be established.
That is why there are four gospels testifying of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The extra books of Mormonism has only one witness.
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I know you don't like what it is I say, but in all the time I've been posting on City-Data, I have never started a thread promoting my religion, nor have I ever started a thread attacking anybody else's beliefs. I will, however, always defend what I believe, and whenever there is a thread which lends itself to a discussion of my beliefs, I will likely contribute.
Highly commendable, but to address errors, every believer and every church has to take pause to re-examine themselves in the faith to make sure that their words and practises are in line with the word of God. No church is exempt and no believer is either, but seeing the extras in Mormonism, I can see that hearing His words will be hard....unless they go to Jesus Christ for help, wisdom, and discernment.
One thing I should point out is that Revelation did not prophesied a one true church coming out of all of this. There were seven types of churches so the teaching that there is the one Church doesn't cut it.
The RCC says they are the one true Church and the LDS says they are the one true church. Both are wrong.
God addressed each church in Revelation, naming their good works and all that, but five of the seven churches He had to reprove with the consequences of being cast into the bed of the great tribulation unless they repent while the two were exhorted to "maintained" what they have heard in the beginning.
It is erroneous to believe that the Apostles failed as leaders in making disciples and those disciples in making other disciples. The non religious body of Christ did have His words and they upkept them at Antioch.
Granted the RCC has supported putting out other translations to make the word of God hard to hear in the King James Bible, but God did supply His words to those that loved Him and His words.
John 14:23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
2 Timothy 1:13Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
The apostles and the following disciples did that at Antioch.
For God to raise up Joseph Smith at a later time to declare the "gospel" through an angel no less, this warning was in place.
Galatians 1: 6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
All supernatural encounters has to be discerned by the word of God.
1 John 4: 1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Timothy 3: 15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Joseph Smith started from scratch without testing the angel at all. He did not compare what was given to him with the King James Bible, otherwise, he would have known that Satan is not a brother to Jesus Christ.
Those that value their relationship with God would not allow pride in their church to keep them from finding the truth with Jesus' help.
The above quote is a different response than what was earlier given.
I honestly don't know what you're talking about.
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Everybody can make mistakes, including me. We all have at one time or another, jumped the gun in zealously replying without thinking.
Yes, we can and we do -- all of us. With that in mind, let me just ask you if this is supposed to be an apology?
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This is propaganda in exalting your denomenation above all others...Propaganda that would place the apostles in a very bad light as leaders...Propaganda in setting the Church of Latter Day Saints as the Church.
You're sure fond of the word "propoganda." Would you mind explaining exactly what you mean? It sounds to me like all you're really saying is that just because I believe my Church to be Jesus Christ's re-established Church and you disagree with me, any evidence I offer to support my position is "propoganda."
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The "fullness" of His gospel was taken from the earth by the extras. Peel away the extras and you have the fullness of the Gospel of grace.
In a way, you're right. I do believe that a great deal of the simplicity and purity of the gospel Jesus taught was complicated by the doctrines of men. God himself because utterly unknowable, thanks to the Creeds that attempted to "clarify" who He was.
Oh, please don't say stupid things! The membership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints now stands at 14 million. Roughly half of these are male. I don't actually know how many of the male members of the Church are adults and how many of them are children, but let's say there are 4 million LDS men today, of which a few hundred may have been involved with Promise Keepers. Are you seriously suggesting that .02% is a significant number? What about the 99.98% whose reaction would be exactly the same as mine, i.e. "Promise Keepers? Who are they?" I'm sure there are members of Promise Keepers from virtually every major Christian denomination in the country. And what does that prove anyway? You, buddy, are totally grasping at straws if you are trying to tie the LDS Church to this off-the-wall movement.
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So. Do you see Jesus as Satan's brother, the product of the Father's physical intercourse with Mary, who then attained Godhood as had His Father before Him? Sounds like extras to me.
1. A completely misunderstood doctrine, taken out of context.
2. An out-and-out lie.
3. Conjecture on the part of some, but certainly not doctrine.
If you really want to start an anti-Mormon thread, why don't you just do that instead of derailing your own thread on an entirely different subject out of pure desperation?
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As for holy laughter, I have found out today that loud laughter is a sin in mormonism so it looks like your denomenation was spared that phenomenon from taking root.
OMG! What on earth gave you that idea?
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And yet his encounter was with an "angel": not God. An angel that came with another gospel.
His first encounter was with God (the Father) and the Son. Revelation 14:6-7 states, "And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." The angel spoken of in Revelation was not to deliver "another gospel," but the same "everlasting gospel" that was delivered anciently by Jesus Christ and then corrupted by men. Do this angel's words (I've italicized them) sound like "another gospel" to you? "Fear God and give glory to Him." And tell me, why would it have been necessary for an angel to deliver the everlasting gospel if it was already on the earth in the last days?
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Many have sought God in the past so how come they did not have an angel visit them with the same gold tablet promoting another gospel of which you believe was the original gospel?
So when and where might that have happened? During the Dark Ages when nobody could read? A bit later, but before the printing press had been invented? During the time of the Spanish Inquisition maybe? Why did God call Moses and give him the ten commandments? Why didn't God call all of the other men who sought Him? God will always pick who He wants to pick. What kind of a question is that?
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Remember that His Church is one where the gates of hell shall not prevail against it so to declare that for a time on earth, the fullness of the Gospel had ceased is a lie just to give credence to Mormonism.
Do you even know what the phrase "the gates of hell" would have meant to Jesus' apostles when He made that statement? Evidently not.
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I understand that but out of love for you to declare the truth, it is time to take pause and YOU go to Jesus Christ in prayer for discernment & wisdom. If you believe God did that for Joseph Smith, then why don't you believe that He will do this to you?
And what makes you think I haven't? That is one of the primary things the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches us to do. From the time we are little children, we're taught that He will hear and answer our prayers. We are taught that He doesn't just want us to blindly accept anything, but to search the scriptures, ponder them, and pray about them. Prospective converts are told to do exactly the same thing: Read the Book of Mormon, ponder its message and, if it rings true to them, to ask God to confirm to them through the Holy Ghost, that it is, in fact, His word.
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What I find ironic about the whole affair with Joseph Smith is that for Mormonism to have any validation by God in according to His word, there should be two or three witnesses to establish that truth. His word says so. 2 Corinthians 13:1This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or threewitnesses shall every word be established.
That is why there are four gospels testifying of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The extra books of Mormonism has only one witness.
First off, you're mixing apples and oranges. What do you mean when you say "the extra books of Mormonism has only one witness?
It's so funny that you would quote 2 Corinthians 13:1. That's one we use all the time. The Bible contains four gospel accounts each testifying that Jesus is the Christ. It is a record of His dealings with His sheep in the Holy Land. The Book of Mormon is NOT "another gospel" but another testament of Jesus Christ. It is a record of His dealings with His sheep on the American continent. Its title page states that it is "to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations." So you've got four biblical gospels testifying of Jesus Christ and one additional one testifying of the same thing. Why is that a problem?
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The RCC says they are the one true Church and the LDS says they are the one true church. Both are wrong.
So which one of the other 32,000 gets your vote?
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It is erroneous to believe that the Apostles failed as leaders in making disciples and those disciples in making other disciples. The non religious body of Christ did have His words and they upkept them at Antioch.
I never said that the Apostles failed in making disciples. They obviously succeeded or else Christianity would have ceased to exist at all. What they were unable to do was to ordain those who would succeed them as Apostles. (I'm assuming you know the difference between a disciple and an apostle.) They actually did attempt to do this, but were unsuccessful for the most part. I guess it was hard to take care of matters like that when you were being hung upside down from a cross.
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Granted the RCC has supported putting out other translations to make the word of God hard to hear in the King James Bible, but God did supply His words to those that loved Him and His words.
John 14:23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
2 Timothy 1:13Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
Of course God supplied His words. Don't think for one minute that we Latter-day Saints don't love the words we find written in the Bible. That has nothing to do with whether there was an apostasy and a restoration or not.
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For God to raise up Joseph Smith at a later time to declare the "gospel" through an angel no less, this warning was in place.
Look, you are convinced that Joseph Smith started "another gospel." There is nothing I'm going to be able to say to convince you otherwise. I don't even know why we're arguing the point. So an angel directed him to the plates. That alone is enough to convince you that the Book of Mormon is false. Man, how closed-minded can a person get?
Have you ever actually read the Book of Mormon from cover to cover, not looking to pick it apart, but to find something of value in it? Have you ever attended an LDS worship service? Have you ever gone to the official LDS website for information on the Church or do you just stick to the yellow journalism sites you find that misrepresent and ridicule LDS doctrine? If you wanted to find out accurate information on Judaism, would you go to a Muslim with your questions? Why would you automatically assume that anything you read on any website about the LDS Church is true -- particularly when there are LDS people telling you, "THAT'S NOT WHAT WE BELIEVE!"
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All supernatural encounters has to be discerned by the word of God.
Well, since Joseph's first supernatural encounter was with God, what would you suggest He have done?
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Joseph Smith started from scratch without testing the angel at all.
And you know this how?
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He did not compare what was given to him with the King James Bible, otherwise, he would have known that Satan is not a brother to Jesus Christ.
You're really hung up on this point, aren't you? You've mentioned it three times in this one post. Why is that anyway? May I ask you where you got this information and exactly how Jesus Christ's relationship with Satan was explained to you? Oh, and by the way, please provide for me chapter and verse from the Bible where Jesus' relationship with Satan is described.
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Those that value their relationship with God would not allow pride in their church to keep them from finding the truth with Jesus' help.
It sounds to me like you're the guilty party. This is exactly what you're doing. You may not even have a church, I don't know. But you do have beliefs, and you are clearly allowing pride in those beliefs to keep you from learning about finding the truth.
If you fail to see the differences between the two quotes, then I can't explain it.
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I'm sure there are members of Promise Keepers from virtually every major Christian denomination in the country. And what does that prove anyway?
The point of reference was to prove that the churches are asleep, and they are not on guard against apostasy. So even if a church claimed to have a five fold ministry; it does not guarantee that they are not asleep.
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1. A completely misunderstood doctrine, taken out of context.
2. An out-and-out lie.
3. Conjecture on the part of some, but certainly not doctrine.
(Mormons view Jesus as Satan's brother, the product of the Father's physical intercourse with Mary, who then attained Godhood as had His Father before Him),
So I will take your word for it.
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If you really want to start an anti-Mormon thread, why don't you just do that instead of derailing your own thread on an entirely different subject out of pure desperation?
It is about the effectiveness of the five fold ministry.
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OMG! What on earth gave you that idea?
In regards to loud laughter as a sin? This is in regards to the worship service in what I could see how that would keep "holy laughter" movement out, but they did expand that to everyday conversation.
"Some of you are very fond of passing jokes, and will carry your jokes very far. But will you take a joke? If you don't want to take a joke, don't give a joke to your brethren. Joking, nonsense, profane language, trifling conversation and loud laughter do not belong to us. Suppose the Angels were witnessing the hoe-down we had the other evening, and listening to the haw, haw's, the other evening would they not be ashamed of it. I am ashamed of it."
"The revelations in the bible, in the book of Mormon, and doctrine and covenants teaches us to be sober; and let me ask you Elders that have been through the ordinances in the Temple, what were your covenants there? I want you should remember them. When I laugh I see my folly, and nothingness, and weakness, and am ashamed of myself."
- Prophet Brigham Young, May 29, 1847, The Essential Birgham Young, p. 29
So that was where I got the idea.
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His first encounter was with God (the Father) and the Son.
Well, there you go. I have been misinformed. Seems like everytime I hear of those golden plates, it was an angel that delivered them from which Mormonism came from. That is what I am referring to.
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And what makes you think I haven't? That is one of the primary things the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches us to do. From the time we are little children, we're taught that He will hear and answer our prayers. We are taught that He doesn't just want us to blindly accept anything, but to search the scriptures, ponder them, and pray about them. Prospective converts are told to do exactly the same thing: Read the Book of Mormon, ponder its message and, if it rings true to them, to ask God to confirm to them through the Holy Ghost, that it is, in fact, His word.
Is it true that Mormons believe Jesus had attained Godhood? Do they believe that they will attain Godhood? If so, I disagree with that teaching.
The believers will be like Him, but that does not mean they will become God. Believers shall be made higher than the angels, but again, that is far short of becoming God.
God is the Alpha and Omega...the first and the last. Jesus had always been and always will be. The idea of Jesus being the Saviour is Him having saved us from our sins so we can live with Him.
If Lucifer fell because of pride in wanting to be God: I don't see God redeeming man to do that which caused Lucifer to fall.
If you have settled upon it, then there is really nothing more for me to say. I had hoped that God would give you pause and help you re-evaluate everything, but if you are not considering it, then I'll drop it.
The point of discussion was about the effectiveness of the five fold ministry in keeping out apostasy. Since Promise Keepers program has crept into the LDS churches: that would be proof to me that the church is asleep just because they got involved with the program.
And yes, other denomenations have Promise Keepers and the conclusion remains the same that even if that denomenation had a five fold ministry, if it had gotten involved with Promise Keepers or the holy laughter movement, then the church is asleep.
God will be coming soon to judge His House to wake up all those that believe in His Son and restore them to the path of righteousness for His name's sake of all those that have gone astray. He will do this.
Last edited by Enow; 10-02-2010 at 05:06 PM..
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