Are All The Offices Filled In Your Church?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Enow

If you fail to see the differences between the two quotes, then I can't explain it.

Oh, I'm sure you could if you wanted to. But since you'd rather play the "If-you-don't-know-I'm-not-going-to-tell-you" game, I'll just repost the two quotes and maybe someone else can point out the glaring contradiction between them for me.

Quote #1: "First off, I have never heard of the "five fold ministry" and had to google it to find out what it was. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was not organized according to the pattern outlined in Ephesians 4 because Joseph Smith got out his Bible and read up on a "five fold ministry." When Jesus Christ re-established His Church, it was organized in exactly the as He had originally established it -- which makes perfect sense."

Quote #2: All of these exist in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Church as a whole is led by a prophet and twelve Apostles, each of whom we believe to have been called of God. The organization established by Jesus Christ shortly before His death ceased to exist when the prophets and apostles He chose were martyred. He has re-established the Church He originally founded, along with the organization described by Paul in Ephesians 4."

The point of reference was to prove that the churches are asleep, and they are not on guard against apostasy. So even if a church claimed to have a five fold ministry; it does not guarantee that they are not asleep.

We don't claim to have a "five fold ministry." The term has never been used in the LDS Church. We believe that when Jesus Christ re-established His Church, He organized it in the same way He'd organized His original Church, with apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers and evangelists. If you see the two as being one and the same, that would explain the confusion.

It was from this link that this quote came from:

Promise Keepers Ecumenical Macho-Men for Christ

Okay, it's all starting to fall together now. This article was referring to the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which is not the same church as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. As a matter of face, since that article was published, the "Reorganized Church" has changed its name and is now known as the Community of Christ. My Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, has never endorsed Promise Keepers.

So I will take your word for it.

Well, I appreciate that, but I'm going to respond to each of the questions you asked since I'm sure people are going to be wondering what we actually do believe with respect to these issues.

1. Do Mormons view Jesus as Satan's brother? This, as I stated, is a very common accusation leveled against Mormons. We believe that all human beings are the offspring of God and that He is the Father of our spirits. (See Acts 17:29 and Hebrews 12:9 if you doubt these doctrines to be biblical.) Unlike traditional Christians, we believe that all of us lived in God's presence prior to being born. (We were spirit beings at that time, without bodies of flesh and bones.) As the spirit sons and daughters of God, we were all brothers and sisters to each other. One of these spirits was named Lucifer. He was a proud and rebellious son who sought to exalt himself above his Father and who was cast out of Heaven for attempting to do so. Unique among all the sons of God was the one we know as Jesus Christ. Unlike the rest of us, He was with His Father in the beginning. Unlike us, He was perfect in every conceivable way and had all of the divine attributes and qualities His Father had. The shared a unity of will and purpose to such an extent that together, they were known (along with the Holy Ghost) as God. Finally, even though we were all the spirit offspring of our Father in Heaven, Jesus Christ was also His Father's "Only Begotten" Son. Under His Father's direction, Jesus Christ created our universe. He was chosen prior to His birth in Bethlehem to be the lamb who would be slain for our sins. When Lucifer was cast out of Heaven, he was disowned by his Father, and lost his right to ever again be known as a son of God (or a brother to the greatest of God's sons, Jesus Christ). So that's our belief. Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with it, you must admit that it does not contradict anything the Bible has to say, since the Bible is 100% silent as to the relationship between Jesus and Lucifer. Furthermore, nothing Lucifer did is in any way a reflection on Jesus Christ. The idea that -- if they were indeed brothers -- Lucifer's rebellion makes Jesus Christ anything less than perfect, is utter nonsense and rationally inexplicable.

2. Do Mormons believe that Jesus was the product of the Father's physical intercourse with Mary? No, we do not. We believe, as do all Christians that I know of, that Mary was a virgin, both at the time of Jesus' conception and at His birth. (We do not believe, though, as do the Catholics, that Mary was "forever virgin.") Now, if you can explain to me how any woman can remain a virgin after having had intercourse, I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say. As far as I know, though, it's something of an impossibility. We do believe that God the Father was the literal Father of Jesus Christ, just as Mary was His literal mother. In other words, the relationship between the Father and the Son is a very real one, and not some metaphysical, imaginary one. As to how Jesus' conception took place, all we know is what the gospel of Luke tells us.

3. Do Mormons believe that Jesus Christ attained godhood as did His Father before Him? We believe that Jesus Christ was known, along with His Father, as "God" -- from the beginning. He did not attain godhood during His mortality, at the time of His baptism, at His Transfiguration, or at His Resurrection. He was "God" before He was born and is "God" today. He is not, however, merely a different manifestation of God than His Father, or part of a single substance with His Father. He is the divine Son of a divine Father. (By the way, when I said in my other post that this was conjecture, but not doctrine, I misread your statement, so please make note of this correction to that statement.)

It is about the effectiveness of the five fold ministry.

Which doesn't concern me in the slightest.

In regards to loud laughter as a sin? This is in regards to the worship service in what I could see how that would keep "holy laughter" movement out, but they did expand that to everyday conversation.

Mormon: Loud Laughter is a Sin in Mormonism

So that was where I got the idea.

May I ask you, Enow, why you are going to anti-Mormon websites for your information? Is it that you don't believe an actively practicing Mormon would tell you the truth about what we believe? Why would we lie about our beliefs? What possible motivation would we have to misrepresent ourselves? Suppose for a minute that Judas had not hanged himself after betraying Jesus. Suppose he continued to live in Jerusalem, known as the man who sold out his friend for money. If you had not known of Jesus Christ yourself, but were to have come to Jerusalem a few years after Christ's resurrection and had wanted to know about this man who performed miracles, healed the sick, made the blind see and who actually rose from the dead three days after He was crucified, who would you seek out for the truth? Peter, James or John? Or would you go to Judas Iscariot? Just help me understand why you would trust a disgruntled ex-Mormon to present an unbiased picture of Mormonism any more than you'd trust Judas for an objective view of Jesus Christ.

Anyway, with respect to loud laughter being a sin in Mormonism, Brigham Young was referring to boistrous, crude, obnoxious behavior, laughing at off-color jokes and laughter of that sort. He was not talking about laughter in general. Believe me, we Latter-day Saints have a good a sense of humor as anybody else. We have to to put up with the ludicrous stories out there about us.

Well, there you go. I have been misinformed. Seems like everytime I hear of those golden plates, it was an angel that delivered them from which Mormonism came from. That is what I am referring to.

I never said otherwise. It was an angel who directed Joseph Smith to where the plates were buried. Three years prior to the angel's visitation, he spoke directly to God the Father and to God's Son, Jesus Christ.

Is it true that Mormons believe Jesus had attained Godhood?

No.

Do they believe that they will attain Godhood? If so, I disagree with that teaching.

I'll get back to you on this tomorrow. I have to work for two hours tonight and can't spend much more time on the site. As a matter of fact, I think I'm going to have to skip the rest of your questions for now (with the exception of your one follow-up comment about Promise Keepers). I'll respond to them tomorrow, though.

The point of discussion was about the effectiveness of the five fold ministry in keeping out apostasy. Since Promise Keepers program has crept into the LDS churches: that would be proof to me that the church is asleep just because they got involved with the program.

To clarify -- in case you missed it earlier -- the LDS Church has never been involved with Promise Keepers. It was the Community of Christ Church (formerly known as the "Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints") that was involved. They're not us and we're not them.

[Nikk]

Originally Posted by Enow

I am not talking about the office of elders and deacons, but these ones below.

Ephesians 4: 11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

I can see the need for these offices and not just for the pastors. How many churches say they have all these positions filled and active within their churches? Not very many from what I can see. Or am I wrong?

Incidentally, I do not think it counts when a pastor does some evangelizing also. It seems they seperate the offices for a reason so as to not to put all the burden of the ministering of the church to be on the pastors.

Pastor is someone that ministers to the general growth of the body of Christ.

Evangelists should be for outreach in converting new believers.

Apostles are what? Those that contend for the faith in keeping it? They bring to notice the ills of society and their teachings in combatting them?

Prophets are those that are up on daily events in light of prophesy in keeping the congregation aware of things?

Teachers are those that edify in the knowledge of Him.

Granted, some apostles, prophets, evangelists, and teachers are elders and deacons, but how many elders and deacons are apostles, prophets, evangelists, and teachers?

So are all of the offices filled in your church or not?

It does not say he gave some "church" these things. Why are you concerned about the church having these offices filled?

[Katzpur]

Enow, I'm going to start where I left off yesterday.

Originally Posted by Enow

Is it true that Mormons believe...that they will attain Godhood? If so, I disagree with that teaching.

The believers will be like Him, but that does not mean they will become God.

I agree, we will not become "God." That is a virtual impossibility. As to what it might mean to be "like Him," we could probably debate that all day.

Believers shall be made higher than the angels, but again, that is far short of becoming God.

So let's clear up some misconceptions and see what Mormons really do believe.

(1) We do not believe that any of us will ever be equal to God, our Eternal Father in Heaven. He will always be our God and we will always worship Him.
(2) Nothing we could possibly do on our own could exalt us to the level of deity. It is only through the will and grace of God that man is given this potential. And "with God, nothing is impossible."
(3) The potential to be like God is not limited to Latter-day Saints. It's as much a possibility for you as for me.

Through Romans 8:16-17, 2 Peter 1:4, Revelation 2:26-27 and Revelation 3:21, we learn that, as children of God, we may also be His heirs, joint-heirs with Christ, even glorified with Him. We might partake of the nature of divinity and be allowed to sit with our Savior on His throne, to rule over the nations.

Now, if these promises are true (as I believe they are), what do they all boil down to? To the Latter-day Saints, they mean that we have the potential to someday, be “godlike.” One of our prophets explained that "we are gods in embryo." If our Father is divine and we are literally his "offspring", as the Bible teaches we are, is it really such a stretch of the imagination to believe that he has endowed each of us with a spark of divinity?

Finally, there is considerable evidence that the doctrine of deification was taught for quite some time after the Savior’s death, and accepted as orthodox. Some of the most well-known and respected of the early Christian Fathers made statements that were remarkably close to the statements LDS leaders have made. For example:

In the second century, Saint Irenaeus said, “If the Word became a man, it was so men may become gods.” He also posed this question: “Do we cast blame on Him (God) because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and than later as Gods?” At about the same period of time, Saint Clement made this statement: “The Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.” And Saint Justin Martyr agreed, saying that men are “deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest.” Some two centuries later, Athanasius explained that “the Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods. He became man that we might be made divine.” And, finally, Augustine, said, “But He that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. For he has given them power to become the sons of God. If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.” Even today, a similar doctrine is taught in some of the Eastern Orthodox churches.

Even the noted Christian theologian, C.S. Lewis, said much the same thing in his book "Mere Christianity."

“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him – for we can prevent Him, if we choose – He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said."

Finally, according to The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology, “Deification (Greek theosis) is for Orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is made in the image and likeness of God…. It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace.”

If Lucifer fell because of pride in wanting to be God: I don't see God redeeming man to do that which caused Lucifer to fall.

I don't believe Lucifer fell because he wanted "to be God." After all, Jesus Christ commanded us to be perfect, even as our Father which is in Heaven is perfect. In other words, the goal should be to be as much like our Father in Heaven as possible. It was not that Lucifer wanted to emulate God and come to possess the divine attributes God had. It was that he wanted to exalt himself. He wanted to thwart God's plan and be glorified in the process.

If you have settled upon it, then there is really nothing more for me to say. I had hoped that God would give you pause and help you re-evaluate everything, but if you are not considering it, then I'll drop it.

I had hoped the same thing for you, Enow.

[shrimpboat]

The "offices" the OP lists are not identified as such in my denomination but some of the duties are incorporated in the ministry. I will begin studying to become a deacon soon and, as such, will be responsible for various parish responsibilities that include social work, ministry to the elderly and shut-in, catechism instruction including first communion classes and, of-course, assisting at the Eucharist each Sunday. In my parish we have a part-time deaconess and two pastors [one part-time] and 10 parochial school teachers though several are not Lutheran. We also have 12 Eucharistic ministers who assist at Mass and take the sacrament to the shut-ins, a large parish choir, cantor, music director, organist and nearly two dozen acolytes.

[Enow]

Originally Posted by Nikk

It does not say he gave some "church" these things. Why are you concerned about the church having these offices filled?

I had thought that perhaps the vacancy of these offices would be the cause for apostasy coming into the churches in these latter days, but I can see how a church can have or claim to have a five fold ministry operating within and still they can get apostasy coming in.

So the point of inquiry of the OP is done.

[firstborn888]

Originally Posted by Enow

Considering the prophesied sorry state of the Gentile churches before His appearing, I would think that a 5 fold ministry team would prevent apostasy from coming in, but it appears I am wrong.

Yes. Considering that there are people like me - who believe the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of freedom and justice for all, I guess the 5 fold ministry did a sorry job.

Actually - one of the 5 fold ministry (the evangelist) told me right before we went door to door evangelizing: "In 15 years of doing this door to door stuff, not even one person showed up to be discipled, even if they said 'the prayer' which means: they didn't really get saved".

He went on to tell me that friendship evangelism was better. But why (just before I went knocking on doors in a rough neighborhood) did he have to tell me that???

Anyway, I've always been a universalist since day one, I finally had to get out of the (cult?) of hell fire - even though their intentions were really really good.

Anyway - "Glad tidings of great joy to all humans",

- Byron

[Enow]

Psalm 12: 1Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men. 2They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak. 3The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things: 4Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us? 5For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him. 6The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. 7Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. 8The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.