Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
How can you say this? God talked to Adam, and walked in the garden amongst them.
I said IS (present tense) not was. You need to read the post .
Quote:
No there hasn't. There WAS only works, and THEN came grace.
For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
If not, and you are right????
Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
That's only true if you consider it from man's perspective who could not see it. However, our very election is founded upon The Covenant of Grace that took place before the foundation of the world. The Covenant of Works was simply a tutor (if you will) to reveal to us the Covenant of Grace:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Act 15:18 `Known from the ages to God are all His works;
And, Christ is said to have been slain from the foundation of the world:
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
However, the Covenant of Grace, that had been kept secret, has now been made manifest and revealed to us in time.
Rom 16:25 And to Him who is able to establish you, according to my good news, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the secret, in the times of the ages having been kept silent,
1Pe 1:19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted--Christ's--
1Pe 1:20 foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you,
Do you see this? The Covenant of Grace has always been there.
Quote:
Yes, they both exist even today. 1 saves, the other does not.
Good, at least we can agree on that!
Quote:
And you say our theology is flawed? Wow, what a stretch.
Where do you keep getting this skin covering theology from? \
From Genesis, where else...LOL
Quote:
You are right, because you are wrong, wrong, wrong.
No he isn't.
Belief is NOT works.
Of course it is. But like the Pharisees, you just didn't know it:
Mat 23:23 `Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye give tithe of the mint, and the dill, and the cumin, and did neglect the weightier things of the Law--the judgment, and the kindness, and the faith; these it behoved you to do, and those not to neglect.
Quote:
Well, it isn't so this peculiar person isn't following your flawed theological doctrine. Wow, what a stretch this post is.
I think you need to start ALL over, and throw out everything, you think you know. That is the best place to start. You already have the belief, so let the Spirit expand your knowledge through His Wisdom. Whew, what a post.....
No..I don't. Covenant Creation is what I believe. There are no two seeds. Adam bore Seth...those that called upon the name of the Lord, such as, in covenant. Anyone else, was not born of Satan or some other evil seed like Cain, but were simply there before Seth, as in Cain's wife, those who Cain feared, etc, as the Bible addresses clearly, they are outside of Adam's lineage. How did they get there? The scripture does not address it. But science does. The Bible does not conflict with what science presents either. In fact, it supports ANE literature in lieu of the the Biblical creation account. If you knew this, you wouldn't be asking. Like I said, you, nor anyone else has any Biblical proof that Adam is the first biological humanoid to walk the earth. However, there is much Biblical proof, that he wasn't. I choose to stay strict to the text, as it appears, that you do not. Maybe a refresher on Mesapotamian literature would help?
To address your lengthy post in a couple of sentences...no...the garden was not the covenant of works.....where do you get that anyway? What part of Tree of Life are you having trouble with? Works did not begin until after he was cast out of the garden:
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Instead of the thorn, will come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it will be to the Lord for a name, for an everlasting sign that will not be cut off.
Your themes are skewed and confused. As Hot stated, first works, then grace. Grace had no part in the Covenant with Death. That was annulled Isa 28 through Christ...understand...annulled covenant....fulfiiled not destroyed...jot or tittle.....saved the covenant..saved the relationship....saved the people who had faith and will have faith, by removing the partition for all to have access to the tree of life and come to the knowledge of truth - 1 Tim 2:4-6 and Eph 2:14
I'm glad to hear you're not a two-seed doctrine person. That doctrine is flawed.
Concerning the Garden and the Covenant of Works. Scripture refers to it as simply the covenant.
Hos 6:7 But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me.
Most (or many) within the field of reformed theology, as I do, refer to it as the covenant of works. Here are a couple of articles on the subject, written from a reformed perspective, that will save me time from repeating:
I said IS (present tense) not was. You need to read the post .
That's only true if you consider it from man's perspective who could not see it. However, our very election is founded upon The Covenant of Grace that took place before the foundation of the world. The Covenant of Works was simply a tutor (if you will) to reveal to us the Covenant of Grace:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Act 15:18 `Known from the ages to God are all His works;
And, Christ is said to have been slain from the foundation of the world:
Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
However, the Covenant of Grace, that had been kept secret, has now been made manifest and revealed to us in time.
Rom 16:25 And to Him who is able to establish you, according to my good news, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the secret, in the times of the ages having been kept silent,
1Pe 1:19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted--Christ's--
1Pe 1:20 foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you,
Do you see this? The Covenant of Grace has always been there.
Actually, you have quoted numerous verses backing up my Kingdom theology. The word world is used to:
1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
IOW, a world-system,,,not the creation that you are twisting it to mean. The foundation of the world is the world(kosmos) set up by God and His Son. The means of setting it up began in Genesis but was realized at Calvary. Again, read Hebrews.
For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.
Hmm, care to rethink this?
Quote:
From Genesis, where else...LOL
Really? show me where skins mean anything other than clothes to keep warm.
Quote:
Of course it is. But like the Pharisees, you just didn't know it:
Mat 23:23 `Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye give tithe of the mint, and the dill, and the cumin, and did neglect the weightier things of the Law--the judgment, and the kindness, and the faith; these it behoved you to do, and those not to neglect.
And what do you mean by this verse? It doesn't prove your point at all. The Law came into being with Moses, not with Adam.
I'm glad to hear you're not a two-seed doctrine person. That doctrine is flawed.
Concerning the Garden and the Covenant of Works. Scripture refers to it as simply the covenant.
Hos 6:7 But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant;There they have dealt treacherously against Me.(BREAKING AN ALLIANCE, LIKE ADAM??)
Most (or many) within the field of reformed theology, as I do, refer to it as the covenant of works. Here are a couple of articles on the subject, written from a reformed perspective, that will save me time from repeating:
We seem to be very far apart when it comes to reformed theology...lol Anyway, carry on my friend .
So you think there were ONLY 2 covenants??
1) covenant, alliance, pledge ---a) between men 1) treaty, alliance, league (man to man) 2) constitution, ordinance (monarch to subjects) 3) agreement, pledge (man to man) 4) alliance (of friendship) 5) alliance (of marriage) ---b) between God and man ------1) alliance (of friendship) ------2) covenant (divine ordinance with signs or pledges)
Actually, there are numerous covenants in the Bible. Seek the wisdom.
Actually, you have quoted numerous verses backing up my Kingdom theology.
That you said in truth. It is your Kingdom theology. Not scriptures or Christ's.
Quote:
The word world is used to:
1) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government
IOW, a world-system,,,not the creation that you are twisting it to mean. The foundation of the world is the world(kosmos) set up by God and His Son. The means of setting it up began in Genesis but was realized at Calvary. Again, read Hebrews.
I'm not twisting anything. On occasions it does have the meaning that you're proposing here. But it does not have that meaning in those verses I selected. In those particular passages, it means the creation of the physical world. Not simply the governance thereof.
Quote:
For a covenant is valid only when men are dead, for it is never in force while the one who made it lives.
Hmm, care to rethink this?
There is nothing to rethink. As I addressed this in my previous post, the new covenant is the manifestation or it's revelation to us, in time, of the Covenant of Grace that had been kept secret.
1Pe 1:19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted--Christ's--
1Pe 1:20 foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you,
Quote:
Really? show me where skins mean anything other than clothes to keep warm.
It's what the skin represented. A covering of Christ for our sins and being clothed in His righteousness. Paul, quoting David tells us that our sins "were covered" (past tense) prior to Christ's literal death on the cross for them.
Rom 4:7 `Happy they whose lawless acts were forgiven, and whose sins were covered;
Rom 4:8 happy the man to whom the Lord may not reckon sin.'
It's similar to the blood of animals in temple ceremonies that pointed to the blood of Christ.
Quote:
And what do you mean by this verse? It doesn't prove your point at all. The Law came into being with Moses, not with Adam.
Though faith may not have been viewed as a law prior to Moses, it was testified to as being a sign of righteousness:
Heb 11:4 by faith a better sacrifice did Abel offer to God than Cain, through which he was testified to be righteous, God testifying of his gifts, and through it, he being dead, doth yet speak.
However, both those under law (Moses) and without that law (Adam) suffered the consequences of being under the Covenant of Works.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
1) covenant, alliance, pledge ---a) between men 1) treaty, alliance, league (man to man) 2) constitution, ordinance (monarch to subjects) 3) agreement, pledge (man to man) 4) alliance (of friendship) 5) alliance (of marriage) ---b) between God and man ------1) alliance (of friendship) ------2) covenant (divine ordinance with signs or pledges)
Actually, there are numerous covenants in the Bible. Seek the wisdom.
No, I didn't say there were only two. However, we've only been discussing the merits or consequences of two Covenants, those of Works and Grace, right?
I'll get back with you guys tomorrow, or the next day or so. I'm tired of quoting scripture on this subject. Take care and God bless both of ya . Pardon any of my sarcasm in the previous posts.
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 10-26-2010 at 12:20 AM..
So what? No one ever said Adam wasn't a real person. Between Christ and Adam are roughly 4000+ years give or take....and no he wasn't the first man, which has no bearing on Christ salvific work either.
Wrong again.
Paul wrote under inspiration of the holy spirit:
1Co 15:45 "If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:the last Adam a vivifying Spirit."
Adam has everything to do with the salvific work of humanity for it was through his seed down to Abraham's seed to David's seed that the Promised Seed came.
Remember, Christ is the Firstborn of every creature and as such He has the duty to redeem and ransom all He is firstborn of. Colossians 1:15-20 shows this happenning.
I'm glad to hear you're not a two-seed doctrine person. That doctrine is flawed.
Concerning the Garden and the Covenant of Works. Scripture refers to it as simply the covenant.
Hos 6:7 But like Adam they have transgressed the covenant; There they have dealt treacherously against Me.
Most (or many) within the field of reformed theology, as I do, refer to it as the covenant of works. Here are a couple of articles on the subject, written from a reformed perspective, that will save me time from repeating:
We seem to be very far apart when it comes to reformed theology...lol Anyway, carry on my friend .
...let me ask you this Alabama....why do you think the tree of life is offered both in the garden, as well as the NH and E? What does it take to have that fruit?
Another thing..who do you think the folks outside the NJ in Rev 21:8 are?
1Co 15:45 "If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:the last Adam a vivifying Spirit."
Adam has everything to do with the salvific work of humanity for it was through his seed down to Abraham's seed to David's seed that the Promised Seed came.
Remember, Christ is the Firstborn of every creature and as such He has the duty to redeem and ransom all He is firstborn of. Colossians 1:15-20 shows this happenning.
Eusebius,
I don't understand your argument with me...I never said anything contrary to what you are saying in regards to Paul, Adam or Christ....I agree with it all..Adam is the first to have recieved a living soul. Through Christ, WE, are given a life giving spirit. I believe it is how you and I are defining "creature" in lieu of scriptural authority. You say it is all mankind, whether saved or not...I say it is those in covenant, whether saved or not. Paul is talking about Israel, the creature, through Adam, hewn into Christ. You put Adam as the first biological man. I do not. That is our disagreeement. I put Adam as the FIRST MAN brought INTO relationship with God, and the promise is revealed to Him, Eve, the war with Satan, and all because of HIS transgression, because HE is the federal head and evangelical for all to enter into the awaited consummation of the coming Christ. This revelatory vision and lineage revealed through Abraham, descendant of Adam, the promise is given through faith. Yet!...the Israelites were a "stiffnecked" bunch, and needed law..they needed law to reveal their sins, because they were stubborn, yet they were chosen, the covenant people, whether righteous or not. A strict literal reading of the text pits Adam roughly 4000 years before Christ. Mankind walked the earth over 100K years ago.....modern human beings Eusebius. Adam son's practiced farming, herding, all respective of the early bronze age.
God is not a deceiver my friend. The Bible does not support Adam as the first biological man that walked the earth. Yet it does support that he is not.
The covenantal laws of sin and death were fulfilled for those like Adam, who enter into covenant with God. UR doesn't fit.
The Bible isn't about those who wil never come into covenant. They aren't part of salvation or atonements. They do no accept the propitation, Christ Jesus.
It is all about the blessings of that covenant, and those who enter into it. In covenant with Christ, you are saved.
[quote=sciotamicks;16407045Another thing..who do you think the folks outside the NJ in Rev 21:8 are?[/quote]
folk from the other 49 States ?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
.
