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Actually, I've not proclaimed the Gospel to any monkeys...Well, then again, are you saying some of the people here are monkeys?...
It doesn't say humanity, it says creatures. That was my point. It doesn't use the flesh, or humans, or even creatures,,,which would be Strong's G4561 - sarx.
1)flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts 2) the body a)the body of a man b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship 1) born of natural generation c) the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature" 1) without any suggestion of depravity 2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin 3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering 3)a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast 4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God
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I'm not suggesting that we proclaim the Gospel to anyone but humanity.
But Paul said in Col 1:23 that it already WAS preached. How can this be even possible? I can see if the nations, had people that had heard,,,but ALL people which is what you are saying,,,right?
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That was the emphasis of my post. Christ uses the word ktisis (in Mar 10:6) when speaking of the creation of man and woman by God. Where did you get the idea I thought otherwise?
The joining of man to woman is symbolic of the state we are in when we join to another in marriage. It is the founding of a new government, with the man as king over his household,,,at least used in this text. Feminists, bear with me a second.
It is the process of leaving the former, and building a new. This is why Christ used this extensively when referring to His Bride, or His Body, or Temple. But He is the foundational corner stone, or head, or bridegroom. Am I the only one seeing this? See it for what it is, and not speak in carnal human terms.
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That's not what Jesus is speaking of in the text (Mar 10:6), now is it. He is speaking of the creation of humanity (Adam and Eve). And that this creation (ktisis), having been joined together by God, should not be separated by man.
One must first understand and see Genesis, and what happened there. It was not speaking of the creation of humanity, which took place in Genesis 1. It is talking about the creation of a power structure, designed by Him, and for Him. Adam and Eve both partoook of the forbidden fruit, which was the desire to have power, over others, thereby replacing God as Sovereign. See it for what it is and not the childs bedtime story.
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As well as all humanity, as illustrated by Jesus with reference to humanity's first representatives, Adam and Eve.
Again, read the above. You have to see it for what it is.
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All creation, as well as humanity, is joined together in Christ, as well.
No it isn't. To be joined, you must first LEAVE the former. If you are the Spiritual Eve to be joined with YOUR Bridegroom Jesus,,,then you must FIRST leave the former world,,,your PARENTS. People are joined to this world,,and no Him. You are proclaiming a future tense favorable year of the Lord, when in fact it is NOW, not later. Fill the Lamp with oil. We cannot live in this world as a part of this world. Am I making any sense?
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Col 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
Col 1:17 and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
In these verse, Paul is explaining WHAT was established. The heavenly rule=Done by God the Father. The earthly rule=Done by man. And it doesn't matter the titles. Thrones, Lordships, Principalities, Authorities. These are governments, and titles and sorts of governmental control.
But notice who is before all, and above ALL. Jesus Christ our King. The word consisted is how we are to act in relation to His Authority. It is the binding of the earthly, to the heavenly. synistēmi 1) to place together, to set in the same place,to bring or band together a) to stand with (or near) 2) to set one with another a) by way of presenting or introducing him b) to comprehend 3) to put together by way of composition or combination, to teach by combining and comparing a) to show, prove, establish, exhibit 4) to put together, unite parts into one whole a) to be composed of, consist
So when we say He is above ALL, really WHAT are we taling about? It is a Kingdom doctrine, isn't it? His Kingdom. This is consistant with the whole counsel of the Word, from Genesis, to Revelation. He is established as King over ALL. But do the people accept their King? Does everyone who cals on Him, saying "Lord, Lord" get into His Kingdom? He answers this Himself.
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Sorry for that. Please accept my apologies. I had you mistaken for an ET'er. Are you an Annihilationist?
Yes. Conditional Immortality is the better term. Humans are not immortal,,only God is. We are given Life through His Son, and no other way. So if a person has no Life, then they are dead.
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If so, it still ultimately separates creation from Christ and defiles the image of God, the image of which man still bears, even in his fallen state.
Humans bore the image of God in His perfect "good" state. We did not remain that way, because we are fallen. Christ was the perfect image of God as stated.
But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
We only become the image of God when we are perfected THROUGH Jesus Christ,,,joined together with Him,,,as in marriage.
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The point I'm making is: Let no man eternally divide His creation of man, His image.
Man is NOT the image of God. Man fell. Man in his fallen state defies God's sovereign rule and authority in His Son. How is this in God's image? Adam fell, no longer being NOW the image. Eve fell, no longer being the image. Jesus never fell, thereby He is the image of God. Perfect and Holy!
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You're referencing Col 1:23, and of course, it's speaking of humanity as being that creation spoken of. That's actually what I'm arguing for in my post. Did you actually read what I posted?
Yes, but we are talking out of 2 different perspectives. I am talking Kingdom doctrine, and you are talking UR doctrine. I see it as NOW, alive, living in those who are His,,,and you speak of the next future plane of existence, when ALL bow, and ALL eyes see. The only ones who get this luxury are ALL those who are His. They bow, because they are subject to His Rule, and this is now, not later. ALL HIS BOW NOW! It is why we get on our knees and pray. It is a respect of His Sovereign Rule.
It is why the rulers of this world HATE Christians who follow the Lamb, because they are not under a secular rule. They are under His Rule.
It doesn't say humanity, it says creatures. That was my point. It doesn't use the flesh, or humans, or even creatures,,,which would be Strong's G4561 - sarx.
1)flesh (the soft substance of the living body, which covers the bones and is permeated with blood) of both man and beasts 2) the body a)the body of a man b) used of natural or physical origin, generation or relationship 1) born of natural generation c) the sensuous nature of man, "the animal nature" 1) without any suggestion of depravity 2) the animal nature with cravings which incite to sin 3) the physical nature of man as subject to suffering 3)a living creature (because possessed of a body of flesh) whether man or beast 4) the flesh, denotes mere human nature, the earthly nature of man apart from divine influence, and therefore prone to sin and opposed to God
But Paul said in Col 1:23 that it already WAS preached. How can this be even possible? I can see if the nations, had people that had heard,,,but ALL people which is what you are saying,,,right?
The joining of man to woman is symbolic of the state we are in when we join to another in marriage. It is the founding of a new government, with the man as king over his household,,,at least used in this text. Feminists, bear with me a second.
It is the process of leaving the former, and building a new. This is why Christ used this extensively when referring to His Bride, or His Body, or Temple. But He is the foundational corner stone, or head, or bridegroom. Am I the only one seeing this? See it for what it is, and not speak in carnal human terms.
One must first understand and see Genesis, and what happened there. It was not speaking of the creation of humanity, which took place in Genesis 1. It is talking about the creation of a power structure, designed by Him, and for Him. Adam and Eve both partoook of the forbidden fruit, which was the desire to have power, over others, thereby replacing God as Sovereign. See it for what it is and not the childs bedtime story.
Again, read the above. You have to see it for what it is.
No it isn't. To be joined, you must first LEAVE the former. If you are the Spiritual Eve to be joined with YOUR Bridegroom Jesus,,,then you must FIRST leave the former world,,,your PARENTS. People are joined to this world,,and no Him. You are proclaiming a future tense favorable year of the Lord, when in fact it is NOW, not later. Fill the Lamp with oil. We cannot live in this world as a part of this world. Am I making any sense?
In these verse, Paul is explaining WHAT was established. The heavenly rule=Done by God the Father. The earthly rule=Done by man. And it doesn't matter the titles. Thrones, Lordships, Principalities, Authorities. These are governments, and titles and sorts of governmental control.
But notice who is before all, and above ALL. Jesus Christ our King. The word consisted is how we are to act in relation to His Authority. It is the binding of the earthly, to the heavenly. synistēmi 1) to place together, to set in the same place,to bring or band together a) to stand with (or near) 2) to set one with another a) by way of presenting or introducing him b) to comprehend 3) to put together by way of composition or combination, to teach by combining and comparing a) to show, prove, establish, exhibit 4) to put together, unite parts into one whole a) to be composed of, consist
So when we say He is above ALL, really WHAT are we taling about? It is a Kingdom doctrine, isn't it? His Kingdom. This is consistant with the whole counsel of the Word, from Genesis, to Revelation. He is established as King over ALL. But do the people accept their King? Does everyone who cals on Him, saying "Lord, Lord" get into His Kingdom? He answers this Himself.
Yes. Conditional Immortality is the better term. Humans are not immortal,,only God is. We are given Life through His Son, and no other way. So if a person has no Life, then they are dead.
Humans bore the image of God in His perfect "good" state. We did not remain that way, because we are fallen. Christ was the perfect image of God as stated.
But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
We only become the image of God when we are perfected THROUGH Jesus Christ,,,joined together with Him,,,as in marriage.
Man is NOT the image of God. Man fell. Man in his fallen state defies God's sovereign rule and authority in His Son. How is this in God's image? Adam fell, no longer being NOW the image. Eve fell, no longer being the image. Jesus never fell, thereby He is the image of God. Perfect and Holy!
Yes, but we are talking out of 2 different perspectives. I am talking Kingdom doctrine, and you are talking UR doctrine. I see it as NOW, alive, living in those who are His,,,and you speak of the next future plane of existence, when ALL bow, and ALL eyes see. The only ones who get this luxury are ALL those who are His. They bow, because they are subject to His Rule, and this is now, not later. ALL HIS BOW NOW! It is why we get on our knees and pray. It is a respect of His Sovereign Rule.
It is why the rulers of this world HATE Christians who follow the Lamb, because they are not under a secular rule. They are under His Rule.
I'm too tired to go line by line through this . Can I leave you with one thought?:
1Co 11:7 for a man, indeed, ought not to cover the head, being the image and glory of God, and a woman is the glory of a man,
The phrase "being the image and glory of God" is used here, by Paul, in the present tense. Even within our fallen state, mankind is still the image and glory of God. That fact has never changed. Those who would curse that image (or a portion of it) to eternal ruin and misery, or say it is fit to be Annihilated should reconsider.
I'm too tired to go line by line through this . Can I leave you with one thought?:
1Co 11:7 for a man, indeed, ought not to cover the head, being the image and glory of God, and a woman is the glory of a man,
The phrase "being the image and glory of God" is used here, by Paul, in the present tense. Even within our fallen state, mankind is still the image and glory of God. That fact has never changed. Those who would curse that image (or a portion of it) to eternal ruin and misery, or say it is fit to be Annihilated should reconsider.
Anyway, take care my friend.
We shall each believe what we are called to believe at any given moment, led by the Holy Spirit.
And this verse you pulled out is also saying the EXACT same thing I am saying. It is talking about a Kingdom doctrine, because just prior to this verse, talking to those who are currently following the Son as Sovereign King and the Father as God Almighty,,,it says this:
But I want you to know that the head of every man IS Christ, the head of woman IS man, and the head of Christ IS God.
Now, we can be fairly certain that Paul is NOT talking about ALL humans, but rather those who are IN Christ, made in the likeness and image of God, perfected by the Son. It is an authority ladder, and Paul is setting this up in the new churches based upon the whole counsel of the written Word beginning in Genesis, which was broken because of the fall, yet restored under Christ Jesus.
HotinAz, Paul is not saying that Christ is the Firstborn of every created thing. That would not make sense.
Firstborn has to do with family and family has to do with creatures. Every creature is a creation.
What Paul is getting at in Colossians 1:15-20 is that Christ is directly connected to every creature by being every creature's Firstborn and that therefore He has the responsibility to rescue, ransom, redeem every creature He is Firstborn of. Colossians 1:20 shows just that.
HotinAz, Paul is not saying that Christ is the Firstborn of every created thing. That would not make sense.
Firstborn has to do with family and family has to do with creatures. Every creature is a creation.
What Paul is getting at in Colossians 1:15-20 is that Christ is directly connected to every creature by being every creature's Firstborn and that therefore He has the responsibility to rescue, ransom, redeem every creature He is Firstborn of. Colossians 1:20 shows just that.
Then we shall agree to disagree. Firstborn has to do with the authority and heirship,,,not just a typical family. Only we see through the family how this authority is set up,,,using the firstborn as the example used in the Word going back, even to Genesis.
This is why Christ is called the firstborn,,,not because of an act,,but because of a RIGHT. It is the RIGHT of the firstborn, of God, to ascend the Throne above ALL thrones.
And I agree Christ is NOT the firstborn of created things, creatures, or even humans. He is the heir of God,,,His ONLY begotten Son.
Which is why we must be 'born again' of the Spirit to even be included into this wonderous Family.
And His responsibility ended at the cross. Now, there is NO EXCUSE.
We shall each believe what we are called to believe at any given moment, led by the Holy Spirit.
And this verse you pulled out is also saying the EXACT same thing I am saying. It is talking about a Kingdom doctrine, because just prior to this verse, talking to those who are currently following the Son as Sovereign King and the Father as God Almighty,,,it says this:
But I want you to know that the head of every man IS Christ, the head of woman IS man, and the head of Christ IS God.
Now, we can be fairly certain that Paul is NOT talking about ALL humans, but rather those who are IN Christ, made in the likeness and image of God, perfected by the Son. It is an authority ladder, and Paul is setting this up in the new churches based upon the whole counsel of the written Word beginning in Genesis, which was broken because of the fall, yet restored under Christ Jesus.
Take care yourself!
I think we can agree that it does include those born of the Spirit (Kingdom doctrine if you will), but you've not really demonstrated that when Paul uses the term "man" (without the definite article, as he does here in verse 7), that Paul is limiting it's scope to a particular group of mankind, ie: those of faith.
The natural reading of the passage would have us believe it is being used in a universal sense. Had Paul used the definite article, I would agree he is referring to a specific group, namely those stated in verse 3. But Paul did not do that.
Consequently, I believe Paul is using the term "man" universally, without distinction, and it includes all mankind. All mankind was created in the image of God, and that image has not been lost.
God reaffirmed this after the fall, when blessing Noah and his sons:
Gen 9:6 whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man is his blood shed: for in the image of God hath He made man.
And His responsibility ended at the cross. Now, there is NO EXCUSE.
Colossians 1:20 proves there won't be any excuse needed because all will be reconciled because the Firstborn of everyone ransomed and redeemed and reconciled everyone.
I think we can agree that it does include those born of the Spirit (Kingdom doctrine if you will), but you've not really demonstrated that when Paul uses the term "man" (without the definite article, as he does here in verse 7), that Paul is limiting it's scope to a particular group of mankind, ie: those of faith.
Sure he is,,,right here:
To the church of God which is at Corinth,to thosewho are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
Which is why sometimes Paul's letters are sometimes hard to understand. They are letters written to a particular group,,IE, the Church.
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The natural reading of the passage would have us believe it is being used in a universal sense.
But this isn't how we are supposed to read it. We are to seek uunderstanding through the Holy Spirit when reading things which can be hard to understand, and let the Spirit guide us into Wisdom and understanding.
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Had Paul used the definite article, I would agree he is referring to a specific group, namely those stated in verse 3. But Paul did not do that.
Sure he did,,,at the first of the letter.
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Consequently, I believe Paul is using the term "man" universally, without distinction, and it includes all mankind.
Ok, but I believe I have shown this false. If not, why not?
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All mankind was created in the image of God, and that image has not been lost.
ALL mankind was to live forever, initially. ALL mankind was to walk with God, initially. But mankind fell, and was lost.
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God reaffirmed this after the fall, when blessing Noah and his sons:
Gen 9:6 whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man is his blood shed: for in the image of God hath He made man.
The image here is the shadow. When you have a shadow cast upon the ground, it is an image you see. Not the real you, but an image. Same as in a mirror. You see an image, but it isn't reality, or flesh and bone. It is a reflection. So in this sense, I would agree with you, because this is how Christ is TO God,,,the perfect CLEAR image. We are but a fogged image, like steam on a mirror. We have the breath of life, a soul and spirit. But we are not God represented perfectly. We are but a dim reflection of our former selves before we fell. All have fallen, therego all are not the image of a perfect God,,,except 1, which is wy He is the firstborn and rightful heir.
Colossians 1:20 proves there won't be any excuse needed because all will be reconciled because the Firstborn of everyone ransomed and redeemed and reconciled everyone.
Then we shall agree to disagree. Firstborn has to do with the authority and heirship,,,not just a typical family. Only we see through the family how this authority is set up,,,using the firstborn as the example used in the Word going back, even to Genesis.
This is why Christ is called the firstborn,,,not because of an act,,but because of a RIGHT. It is the RIGHT of the firstborn, of God, to ascend the Throne above ALL thrones.
And I agree Christ is NOT the firstborn of created things, creatures, or even humans. He is the heir of God,,,His ONLY begotten Son.
Which is why we must be 'born again' of the Spirit to even be included into this wonderous Family.
And His responsibility ended at the cross. Now, there is NO EXCUSE.
HotinAZ, what is your take on the scripture which says that things in the heavens (AND earth) are being reconciled? What in the heavens needs reconciling? Mike, not too long ago, agreed that God wanted to reconcile fallen angels, but they didn't want to be reconciled. But, that's not what scripture says. So, Christ's blood was not given only for humanity, it was given for the fallen angels as well.
and through him to reconcile to himself all things,whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Revelation 5:13. Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
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