Jesus is Firstborn of EVERY CREATURE (Col.1:15) (Eden, gnostic, scriptures)

[Eusebius]

:
Originally Posted by Eusebius
It is not my "my own UR doctrines." Look again at Colossians 1:15-21. It is clear as day. Do you need a flashlight to see the sun? The entire universe is going to be reconciled to God through what Christ did as Firstborn of every creature.
Hot replied:
The people who ARE IN Christ have ALREADY been(past tense) reconciled to the Father through Jesus Christ our King. Those past, present, and future.

Colossians 1:21 says believers are reconciled NOW. So the rest of all in the heavens and earth come later as Colossians 1:20 says. Just believe it. Quit fighting it.
Eusebius wrote:

:
How is that my own UR doctrine? Yes, it is UR doctrine but not my own personal.
Hot replied:
It is yours, personally. It is the evidence of the fruit you bear, which makes it your own. You read the Word with UR glasses, seeing UR in each verse. It is what you preach, live and breathe for, such as the evidence of your numerous posts on this subject.

Oh brother, since when fruit determine whether the truth is the truth?
Eusebius wrote:

:
That is where the Spirit leads. If you find your head beating against a wall, either go through the wall or around it or succumb to the truth.
Hot replied:
The Spirit may have led you there to understand it, but it is not Truth. It is so you may defend the Truth against lies. Sadly, you have parked yourself IN the lie.

That doesn't make any sense. The Spirit led me there to understand it but it lead me into a lie? So now you are saying the Spirit is a deceiver?
Eusebius wrote:

:
Christ is Firstborn in that He is responsible for every creature in the heavens and on the earth. You are just re-defining what Firstborn is according to your own personal idea. In the OT the firstborn were given double what the father owned so he was the leader of the family to take care of all in the family upon the death of the father.
Hot replied:
Christ is KING over everything, whether or not people accept this fact. Those who do not believe, refuse this fact. These people have made their choice, and refuse to bow to Him who sits on the throne. They are not included in the ALL knees will bow, because they will not even be there. They will be gone, completely, having neither memory of them in the Book of Life, as they are blotted out of existence.

Eusebius' reply:
That is not what Colossians 1:20 says. It doesn't say he is the King over everything. It says he is Firstborn of every creature. Obviously all will be reconciled in the heavens and earth because all will be reconciled in the heavens and on the earth. It doesn't say "if they just believe." It says the believers are reconciled NOW. So there are more to come later. That does not make sense that all who are blotted out of existence are reconciled to God and friends with God. Try to think before you blather such mumbo jumbo.

Eusebius wrote::
Your prayers will come to pass.
Hot replied:
They already have. His World(Kosmos) is here, now.

Eusebius replies:
We aren't talking about whether His world is here or not. We are talking about all in the heavens and earth being reconciled to God, making peace through the blood of Christ's cross.

Eusebius wrote:
Lev 25:25 In case your brother is reduced to poverty and sells use of some of his holding, then his redeemer, one near to him, will come and redeem his brother's sold land-use.
"near to him" does not mean "someone living next door" but means next of kin.
Rth 2:20 Naomi replied to her daughter-in-law, Blessed be he by Yahweh, Who has not forsaken His benignity toward the living and the dead. And Naomi explained to her, This man is a near relative of ours; he is one of our kinsmen redeemers.
Hot replied:
Christ is not EVERYONE'S brother. Sorry, this is a failed attempt. He isn't even related in any way shape nor form, unless they have been redeemed through His OWN BLOOD after the cross, or by faith before the cross.

Eusebius' reply:
God has made Christ the Firstborn of every intelligent being in the heavens and on the earth. You just don't believe it.

Eusebius wrote::
There are too many verses to quote them all. I refuse to do anyone's homework for them. Please go through every OT reference of firstborn and see that what I am saying is correct.

Hot replied:
Cute caps!
I already DID MY HOMEWORK. Only a fool would tell someone to do something, unless they had first done it themselves.

Eusebius' reply:
If you did your homework you would already believe what I've been saying.

Eusebius wrote::
Look at the word "firstborn" in the OT. Jacob received the Firstborn rights so he received the majority of riches of Abraham. This was not so Jacob could just have riches for himself but so he could take care of all he was firstborn of.
Hot replied:
Still not getting it, are you? You are not related to Jacob, nor more so than a stone is related to Abraham. Jesus is not everyone's brother. The JW's and the Mormons preach this, because they include Satan in this mix as well. Is this what you believe also?

Satan worshippers and people in wichcraft and preach what you preach. Prove to me the JW's and Mormons preach that due to Christ being Firstborn of every creature that he has the responsibility to ransom and redeem all he is firstborn of! Otherwise shut your mouth.

Eusebius wrote:
God gave to His Son, Jesus Christ all the rights of Firstborn of every creature. He is not the Firstborn of rose bushes or stars or space dust or light bulbs. Firstborn in the bible always has to do with HUMANS.
Hot replied:
I thought we were talking about creature, not firstborn. You seem a little locked on this topic, but you are mistaken when you say they are all related. In fact, it is a lie.

Go back to the original post. I have been talking all about "Firstborn" and "creature" all along. The bible says "Christ is the Firstborn of every creature." you say that is a lie. You obviously know more than God.

Hot replied:
But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"
And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, "Behold My mother and My brothers!
"For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother."
Now, do you feel like telling Jesus who His own relation is? Or can I rest this case, finally.

That was before Christ died for all mankind. Now Christ has been given the Firstborn right of every creature. He did what was needed to reconcile all who are at enmity to Him in the heavens and on the earth. Like it or lump it.

eusebius wrote:
Rom 8:19-23 For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God. (20) For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation" (21) that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God." (22) For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now. (23) Yet not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the spirit, we ourselves also, are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body."
The above passage speaks for itself.
Hot replied:
Actually, what you say it speaks, doesn't.

Eusebius replies:
I see you didn't copy Romans 8:19-23. Afraid of something? So I copy and pasted it back in so people would know what we are talking about.
It does speak for itself. Inanimate things don't groan and expect to be freed. only beings do that. The creation is beings in the passage above. All creatures, all beings will be released from slavery into the freedom of the children of God. This proves not just children of God will be saved in the future.

eusebius wrote:
The creation, that means all rational beings because things like rose bushes, or rocks or moons don't groan nor are they subjected to slavery.
Hot replied: Then why didn't it say humans? Hmm. Probably because it didn't MEAN humans.

Eusebius' reply:
Because every intelligent being in the universe is in view, not just humans.

:
By "creation" is meant all rational beings in the universe are enslaved to corruption and so are groaning now.
Hot's reply:
So saith you.

Eusebius' reply:
So saith the Scriptures and common inspired sense.

:
They all will be freed into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
Hot replied:
Actually, His people will. Satan's will not.

Eusebius' replied:
All in the heavens and earth doesn't mean "some in the heavens and earth."
If you are going to make "all" less than "all" in Colossians 1:20 then you have to do it to all the "alls" from 1:15-20.

Eusebius wrote:
How hard is that to understand?
Hot replied:
Actually, it is easy to understand. You are the one who seems to not understand it.

Say it enough times and you might believe it.

eusebius wrote concerning Romans 8:19-23:
This proves not just children of God will be saved in the future as limitarians preach.
Hot replied:
Actually, it doesn't say that, but nice try.

Eusebius' reply:
Saying it doesn't doesn't make it so. You have to prove that Romans 8:19-21 does not prove that the creation will be brought into the freedom of the children of God.

Hot wrote concerning Romans 8:19-23:
See, since you do not have understanding OF those verses, you must now make up an excuse to remove the whole word, and replace it with YOUR definitions. Read your quote again.

Actually, you have not shown me at ll, in all this rant and rave about the meaning of the word creation, nor creature. For if you did an honest study on them, this post would not exist.

Eusebius' reply:
Since you do not have understanding of those verses, you must now make up an excuse to remove the whole word, and replace it with your definitions.
If you did an honest study on this this post would not exist.


Quote:
Consider it done.
lol. ok
[/quote]
All creation is going to be freed into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
If that does not mean what it says, what does it mean? If it does not mean what it says then words have no meaning.

[HotinAZ]

lol, I am not going to try and decipher that post of yours.

do a study on creature and creation, first, before we move any further along. in fact, here, I will do them for you:

Creature or ktisis :

1) the act of founding, establishing, building etc

now the subdefnitions can be anything related to the above act, like:

a) the act of creating, creation
b) creation i.e. thing created
--- 1) of individual things, beings, a creature, a creation
--- --- a) anything created
--- --- b) after a rabbinical usage (by which a man converted from idolatry to Judaism was called)
--- --- c) the sum or aggregate of things created
c) institution, ordinance

But if you take an honest look at the MAIN definition,,,what does it say? It says an ACT of FOUNDING, ESTABLISHING, BUILDING

Someone who believes in UR, like yourself, should know better than to take any man's translations of the Greek into English. You know, like hell and forever and ever, and etc. So, why does it apply in some circumstances, and not others? This conversation is the same 'type' of conversation people who believe in ET have with those who believe in UR. SAME symantics.

Create or ktizō :

1) to make habitable, to people, a place, region, island
--a) to found a city, colony, state
2) to create
--a) of God creating the worlds
--b) to form, shape, i.e. to completely change or transform

Most common usage is always defined first.

Both are akin to ktaomai which a primary word and others are related to it.

1) to acquire, get, or procure a thing for one's self, to possess
a) to marry a wife

Now put all these pieces together,,,and enjoy.

[Eusebius]

HotinAZ, obviously your definition of "creature" or "creation" does not match up with how God used those words. Let's look again at

Rom 8:19-22 "For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God. (20) For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation" (21) that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God." (22) For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now."


Now tell me how a creation per your definition can be groaning and travailing? How can creation per your definition have a premonition? How can creation per your definition be vain and not volunteer to be subject to vanity? How can a creation per your definition groan and travail? This is obviously talking about intelligent beings which the term "creation" stands for.

That would not make sense that God is going to free moons and space dust and suns into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Focus on this HotinAZ. Quit giving me your silly definitions which have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

No one was every Firstborn of a building or a stadium or gymnasium or house or dog house or hamster cage. Your idea is just silly.

[HotinAZ]

HotinAZ, obviously your definition of "creature" or "creation" does not match up with how God used those words.

Really? And why is this? Because you say so? Let us look at them.

For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.

Now, WHO is awaiting the revealing? EVERYONE? Or just those who are IN Christ now, which would be HIS Kingdom? Established! Hense, then that word creation is used of His people:

the act of founding, establishing, building etc

Who?


But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Back to Romans now:

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope?? that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

What is there to hope for, if this is applying to everyone? Doesn't even make sense, does it. This makes God sound awful wishy-washy.

Now tell me how a creation per your definition can be groaning and travailing?

For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

Who is groaning? Who is suffering, like the pains of childbirth? Who is being tested to the point of pain?

See, your doctrine doesn't make ANY sense to me. This passage is applying to those awaiting their King. These people are persecuted, tortured, and killed. They are tried, though as through fire, and ALL this is the refining process.

It says the WHOLE CREATION, but we all know, who have any sensibility, that the WHOLE CREATION is not suffering. We know those who are perfectly happy living in the flesh, bowing the knee to THEIR GODS, and not the King of kings.

How can creation per your definition have a premonition?

Definition= 1) anxious and persistent expectation

Is this a premonition, or rather a longing? See what I mean. Do the study.

How can creation per your definition be vain and not volunteer to be subject to vanity?

We all know what the definition of vanity is. Is this the definition?

1) what is devoid of truth and appropriateness
2) perverseness, depravity
3) frailty, want of vigour

Comon brother. We all know the people are devoid of Truth, and we know we must seek it. Those who are devoid of Truth cannot be considered as intellegent now, can they. It would be 'vain' to think otherwise.

That would not make sense that God is going to free moons and space dust and suns into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

Never said God was going to free this stuff. Your made up definition says creation, andso you must now justify it,,not me. I know what it means, and it isn't talking about ALL creation, it is talking about His Kingdom, and those seeking entrance into it. His world-system, His kosmos. See, I don't have to make silly stuff up to justify my Truths. You do.

Focus on this HotinAZ. Quit giving me your silly definitions which have nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Isn't this like the pot calling the kettle black. These silly definitions you speak of, are there as plain as day. The topic is, and ALWAYS has been about His Son, and His Kingdom. Not you. You may be adopted, which is what you should be longing for, travailing for, suffering for.

No one was every Firstborn of a building or a stadium or gymnasium or house or dog house or hamster cage. Your idea is just silly.

Of course it would seem silly to you. You do not see it, nor seek to understand it.

"I also shall make him MY FIRSTBORN, The highest of the kings of the earth. My lovingkindness I will keep for him forever, And My covenant shall be confirmed to him. So I will establish his descendants forever And his throne as the days of heaven."


Does this sound like anything other than a Kingdom doctrine? AND DOES THIS SOUND SILLY TO YOU?

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by HotinAZ

For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

Who is groaning? Who is suffering, like the pains of childbirth? Who is being tested to the point of pain?

See, your doctrine doesn't make ANY sense to me. This passage is applying to those awaiting their King. These people are persecuted, tortured, and killed. They are tried, though as through fire, and ALL this is the refining process.

It says the WHOLE CREATION, but we all know, who have any sensibility, that the WHOLE CREATION is not suffering. We know those who are perfectly happy living in the flesh, bowing the knee to THEIR GODS, and not the King of kings.

I know I shouldn't jump in here, but I can't resist .

Verse 22 tells us that all creation groans, etc.:

Rom 8:22 for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now.

Next, Paul tells us that not only all creation, but also all the saints in Rome (believers), also groan.

Rom 8:23 And not only so , but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting--the redemption of our body;

So then, how are those in Verse 23 unique from those spoken of in verse 22? Paul tells us in verse 23 (those of faith) have the first-fruit of the Spirit. They possess it now. Present tense.

And what about the rest of creation, those not of the faith? Paul tells us here:

Rom 8:21 that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God;

The word "free" (ἐλευθερόω) is used by Paul in the future tense, as opposed to those who "have" (present tense) in verse 23. That part of creation (spoken of in verse 21) has not, as yet, experienced the fruit of the Spirit. But Paul tells us it will also, but it will come about in the future. So much for ETing and Annihilationism . Sorry, I had to get that one in...

Actually, this is one of the clearest testimonies in the NT that all mankind shall be set free from the corruption of sin. Those of faith experience it now, having the first-fruit of the Spirit. Believers experience the fruit now in the process of their sanctification.

Rom 6:22 And now, having been freed from the sin, and having become servants to God, ye have your fruit--to sanctification, and the end life age-during;

The reason it's called first-fruit in Rom 8:23, is because it's not the only fruit or the last fruit.

More fruit of the Spirit is yet to come, in the future. All creation, all mankind, shall be set free (future tense) from sin and it's corruption.

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm

I know I shouldn't jump in here, but I can't resist .

Verse 22 tells us that all creation groans, etc.:

Rom 8:22 for we have known that all the creation doth groan together, and doth travail in pain together till now.

Next, Paul tells us that not only all creation, but also all the saints in Rome (believers), also groan.

Rom 8:23 And not only so , but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption expecting--the redemption of our body;

So then, how are those in Verse 23 unique from those spoken of in verse 22? Paul tells us in verse 23 (those of faith) have the first-fruit of the Spirit. They possess it now. Present tense.

And what about the rest of creation, those not of the faith? Paul tells us here:

Rom 8:21 that also the creation itself shall be set free from the servitude of the corruption to the liberty of the glory of the children of God;

The word "free" (ἐλευθερόω) is used by Paul in the future tense, as opposed to those who "have" (present tense) in verse 23. That part of creation (spoken of in verse 21) has not, as yet, experienced the fruit of the Spirit. But Paul tells us it will also, but it will come about in the future. So much for ETing and Annihilationism . Sorry, I had to get that one in...

Actually, this is one of the clearest testimonies in the NT that all mankind shall be set free from the corruption of sin. Those of faith experience it now, having the first-fruit of the Spirit. Believers experience the fruit now in the process of their sanctification.

Rom 6:22 And now, having been freed from the sin, and having become servants to God, ye have your fruit--to sanctification, and the end life age-during;

The reason it's called first-fruit in Rom 8:23, is because it's not the only fruit or the last fruit.

More fruit of the Spirit is yet to come, in the future. All creation, all mankind, shall be set free (future tense) from sin and it's corruption.

Sorry Alabama,

Now I have to jump in here. Paul is clear as to who "kitsis" is and in fact, you seem to have got that right, in that I commend you, however many others have simply interpreted it wrong, an expect some kind of shiny new planet in return. Kitsis is none other than mankind, specifically, those who believe. But yet again, I must correct you on the latter piont, in that Paul is NEVER speaking about those outside of covenant...this is where your UR view is imposed onto the text once again. Your post is littered with my point, yet you have turned from it and imposed your UR view into it, disregarding the obvious.

[HotinAZ]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Sorry Alabama,

Now I have to jump in here. Paul is clear as to who "kitsis" is and in fact, you seem to have got that right, in that I commend you, however many others have simply interpreted it wrong, an expect some kind of shiny new planet in return. Kitsis is none other than mankind, specifically, those who believe. But yet again, I must correct you on the latter piont, in that Paul is NEVER speaking about those outside of covenant...this is where your UR view is imposed onto the text once again. Your post is littered with my point, yet you have turned from it and imposed your UR view into it, disregarding the obvious.

Actually, I am going to disagree with Alabama. Verse 23 is expecting adoption, not having yet obtained it. They have the first fruits of the Spirit, not simply faith. Verse 22 is talking about the past tense, those of of old testament times, which makes up part of the Kingdom, or rather when the 'temple'. They are not excluded.

It starts with a cornerstone, and then is built up. Kitsis cannot be mankind, because you cannot take a part of mankind without taking the whole of mankind, Otherwise, Paul would have simply said believers, or just saints. He is talking about a whole different topic, relating to the Kingdom.

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by HotinAZ

Actually, I am going to disagree with Alabama. Verse 23 is expecting adoption, not having yet obtained it. They have the first fruits of the Spirit, not simply faith. Verse 22 is talking about the past tense, those of of old testament times, which makes up part of the Kingdom, or rather when the 'temple'. They are not excluded.

It starts with a cornerstone, and then is built up. Kitsis cannot be mankind, because you cannot take a part of mankind without taking the whole of mankind, Otherwise, Paul would have simply said believers, or just saints. He is talking about a whole different topic, relating to the Kingdom.

You are absolutely right. Maybe I should have been more specific as you were.....those of the faith, not just in Christ, but both Jews and Christians of the covenantal people, in that including Paul, Peter, Isaiah, Joshua, etc...Israel. Paul, in many of his lengthy letters, the theme and ocus is always those o the aith, whether Jew or Gentile, whether in Old or New Covenant.

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Sorry Alabama,

Now I have to jump in here. Paul is clear as to who "kitsis" is and in fact, you seem to have got that right, in that I commend you, however many others have simply interpreted it wrong, an expect some kind of shiny new planet in return. Kitsis is none other than mankind, specifically, those who believe. But yet again, I must correct you on the latter piont, in that Paul is NEVER speaking about those outside of covenant...this is where your UR view is imposed onto the text once again. Your post is littered with my point, yet you have turned from it and imposed your UR view into it, disregarding the obvious.

I think you're partially correct here (the doctrine of your Presbyterian upbringing)...LOL

But not fully correct. Yes, Paul is speaking of those who experience that covenant relationship now (present tense), but Paul does not limit it to those who are partaking of it now in verse 23. Paul also includes those who will (future tense) experience their covenant relationship to God in the future. And Paul tells us in verse 21 that all creation, all mankind will experience that covenant relationship in time, even those who are, for the present, being denied it's benefits through experience (first-fruit):

2Ti 2:12 if we do endure together--we shall also reign together; if we deny him , he also shall deny us;
2Ti 2:13 if we are not stedfast, he remaineth stedfast; to deny himself he is not able.

But is that the end of the faithless who do not experience the first-fruit? God forbid!

Rom 3:3 for what, if certain were faithless? shall their faithlessness the faithfulness of god make useless?

Rom 3:9 What, then? are we better? not at all! for we did before charge both Jews and Greeks with being all under sin,

So then, does this change the faith of Christ towards those who are not of the household of faith? NO! The faith of Christ is to all, but as yet, only upon those who believe (present tense):

Rom 3:22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,

But yet, there is no difference between the two concerning the faith of Christ! In time, all will experience the righteousness of God through Christ's faithfulness. All will believe, in time. All will enter into that Covenant, by the faithfulness of Christ. And praise God for it!

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by HotinAZ

Actually, I am going to disagree with Alabama. Verse 23 is expecting adoption, not having yet obtained it. They have the first fruits of the Spirit, not simply faith. Verse 22 is talking about the past tense, those of of old testament times, which makes up part of the Kingdom, or rather when the 'temple'. They are not excluded.

Those of faith have received (past tense) the spirit of adoption, which all creation has not, as yet received. That's the present difference between the two in that regard.

Rom 8:15 for ye did not receive a spirit of bondage again for fear, but ye did receive a spirit of adoption in which we cry, `Abba--Father.'

The Saint's are on, so I'll catch up with you and Sciota later...take care!