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I've been studying ET, Annihilationism, and UR for awhile now and lately have been pondering in depth Matthew 7:21-23
Quote:
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven; only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of iniquity.’ "
This one verse convinces me beyond a shadow of a doubt that universal Redemption is NOT a valid belief. This one verse, being the EXACT words of our Lord, Jesus overrides anything UR'ers can use from Paul and/or any other author of the Bible outside the four Gospels, because Jesus' words take precedent over anything a mortal man can say.
Notice that Jesus makes plain His verdict is final. There is no conditional circumstances that reverses its decree---nothing like, "Depart from Me until you serve a term in the Lake of Fire and learn My truths--only then will you be admitted into heaven."
Note the plain language, "Not everyone will enter heaven." And "I never knew you. Depart." Does it say, "Depart, until.... "? Or "Depart for an aionion and then you will be admitted." or any similar pronouncements? I see nothing in Jesus' words that even remotely suggests there are conditions to be met and then His decision will be reversed. In such a weighty declaration as this, if there were any, Jesus certainly wouldn't have hesitated to add them to let His listeners know that there was a way to escape such a devastating condemnation.
No, my friends, Jesus' decision is final. Once you are refused entrance into heaven it is for all eternity. No second chances as Universalists claim.
But eternal torment is also not an option because of the use of words like "perish", "destroyed" "die" "destruction", etc. These words leave no doubt that the soul, which is not immortal, is destroyed by God once final judgement is passed by Jesus or God at the end time. This leaves only annihilation as the logical punishment for souls that die in their sin.
Amen to that! Very well said. I certainly believe in Eternal Destruction, but have recently been shown it in an awesome new light that sheds further glory on God's amazing LOVE and goodness. I gave a quick summary in another thread but I will repost it for you here.
Quote:
This is a subject that I have certainly gained a new perspective of since reading a book 'Finding the Father' by a guy named Herb Montgomery and listening to a series he did called Life Unlimited (his website is renewedheartministries.com).
I will try to summarize a portion of what I learned, and how my perspective has slightly changed. I used to think of the final destruction of the wicked, as an overt act carried out by God, but now I don't necessarily see that as being the case. Anyone who has ever felt guilt knows that it can be quite a heavy burden to bear and can be emotionally and even physically draining. In fact I know that there have been people so racked with guilt that it has caused physical suffering to a great degree and once even caused a man's death. Christ experienced the guilt of humanity's sin and it crushed the life right out of Him on the cross. At the cross every single human being to ever live was forgiven of all their sin. the funny thing about forgiveness though is that if you don't believe you are forgiven, then you will still feel guilty for your sin. Have you ever had that happen? Where you wronged somebody, and they said they forgave you, but you still felt guilty, until eventually through the persons repeated gestures of kindness you realized you were truly forgiven and the weight of that guilt was lifted. What if you never believed in the forgiveness? Then that guilt would always be there. Maybe not always on the surface, but when a situation arose, that reminded you of what you had done, that guilt would come back to the surface and bother you. You see the reason that god calls us to repentance, isn't so that he can change His attitude towards us from one of condemnation to one of acceptance. He calls us to repentance so that He can effect a change in us that frees us from the burden of guilt and condemnation. the guilt and condemnation we felt wasn't from God but was an effect of sin. God loves us and already forgave us at Calvary, but until we repent we carry that guilt around ourselves. Christ does not say love me or I'll kill you. He came to let us know that sin will kill us, but He can save us all from that fate if we let Him.
there have long been discussions here and elsewhere about those that go to Heaven vs those that go to Hell, and it wasn't until recently that I was shown that Heaven and Hell are not 2 separate places. Heaven is anywhere in the full presence of God. Hell is anywhere in the full presence of God. You see God never changes. He has always loved us, and at Calvary He forgave all of us. If we believe in and accept God's forgiveness, it enables God to work on our hearts and change us so that we are freed of our guilt. With that guilt removed, we are able to stand in the presence of God and bask in all His glory. However, if a person has chosen to reject Calvary's gift and hold onto their guilt, then when they find themselves in the presence of God, His glory will make them acutely aware of all that guilt and it will be more than they can bear. The weight of that guilt will literally crush the life out of them, and there will be nothing left but a corpse. Fire will simply be the means with which God disposes of all the corpses, and cleanses the earth so that it can be made new.
People seem to think that there is nothing that God cannot do, but they are very wrong. The Bible makes it clear that, at the very least, God cannot lie. God also cannot do that which cannot be done, such as making a square triangle. Love cannot be forced without ceasing to be love. Same goes with acceptance. God's forgiveness is freely offered to all who will accept it, but sadly God cannot force anyone to accept it. Annihilation is not God's choice, it is the choice of those who refuse God's choice.
I've been studying ET, Annihilationism, and UR for awhile now and lately have been pondering in depth Matthew 7:21-23
This one verse convinces me beyond a shadow of a doubt that universal Redemption is NOT a valid belief. This one verse, being the EXACT words of our Lord, Jesus overrides anything UR'ers can use from Paul and/or any other author of the Bible outside the four Gospels, because Jesus' words take precedent over anything a mortal man can say.
Notice that Jesus makes plain His verdict is final. There is no conditional circumstances that reverses its decree---nothing like, "Depart from Me until you serve a term in the Lake of Fire and learn My truths--only then will you be admitted into heaven."
Note the plain language, "Not everyone will enter heaven." And "I never knew you. Depart." Does it say, "Depart, until.... "? Or "Depart for an aionion and then you will be admitted." or any similar pronouncements? I see nothing in Jesus' words that even remotely suggests there are conditions to be met and then His decision will be reversed. In such a weighty declaration as this, if there were any, Jesus certainly wouldn't have hesitated to add them to let His listeners know that there was a way to escape such a devastating condemnation.
No, my friends, Jesus' decision is final. Once you are refused entrance into heaven it is for all eternity. No second chances as Universalists claim.
But eternal torment is also not an option because of the use of words like "perish", "destroyed" "die" "destruction", etc. These words leave no doubt that the soul, which is not immortal, is destroyed by God once final judgement is passed by Jesus or God at the end time. This leaves only annihilation as the logical punishment for souls that die in their sin.
"No second chances" is an American mentality. We can see another good example of "no second chances" in the use of the death penalty (indeed, no second chances even for the innocent who are put to death!).
The law says, "no second chances." God says, "I forgive you."
Man tells us "no second chances" because that's all he is capable of.
Jesus tells us to forgive others continuously, because that is what the Father does. Otherwise, as your OP states, He will tell us, "I never knew you."
Also, Christ is not done teaching us. The Anointing that was in the Head, Jesus, is also able to teach the Body, us. Calvary was only the beginning.
I've been studying ET, Annihilationism, and UR for awhile now and lately have been pondering in depth Matthew 7:21-23
This one verse convinces me beyond a shadow of a doubt that universal Redemption is NOT a valid belief. This one verse, being the EXACT words of our Lord, Jesus overrides anything UR'ers can use from Paul and/or any other author of the Bible outside the four Gospels, because Jesus' words take precedent over anything a mortal man can say.
Notice that Jesus makes plain His verdict is final. There is no conditional circumstances that reverses its decree---nothing like, "Depart from Me until you serve a term in the Lake of Fire and learn My truths--only then will you be admitted into heaven."
Note the plain language, "Not everyone will enter heaven." And "I never knew you. Depart." Does it say, "Depart, until.... "? Or "Depart for an aionion and then you will be admitted." or any similar pronouncements? I see nothing in Jesus' words that even remotely suggests there are conditions to be met and then His decision will be reversed. In such a weighty declaration as this, if there were any, Jesus certainly wouldn't have hesitated to add them to let His listeners know that there was a way to escape such a devastating condemnation.
No, my friends, Jesus' decision is final. Once you are refused entrance into heaven it is for all eternity. No second chances as Universalists claim.
But eternal torment is also not an option because of the use of words like "perish", "destroyed" "die" "destruction", etc. These words leave no doubt that the soul, which is not immortal, is destroyed by God once final judgement is passed by Jesus or God at the end time. This leaves only annihilation as the logical punishment for souls that die in their sin.
Greetings thrillobyte.
My heart rejoyces for you! I thank our Father in heaven for your eyes He opened, and for your heart He softened...for lifting the darkened veil from your understanding with the light of the Holy Spirit of truth...Praise Him!...All the glory...all the honor and all the praise be to Him and Him alone!
I am so glad you now know and understand God's truth...and you better understand now because you took it upon yourself to take off all the preconceived ideas and beliefs you held in your heart for so long, from what you've been taught in error. You've been diligent in your seeking for the very heart of God's will for your life...I've watched (with great interest) you develope and grow spiritually for a long time now. You just didn't take it for granted what you heard...you kept an open mind and listened intentely and searched with all of your heart to find the true heart of our loving God and sought with all of your heart to find out what He wills for your life. God's love...that is what you have discovered...as well as what THAT love entails and demands, which is respect and obedience to appreciate it's vastness...it's many facets! He approves thrillobyte!...He approves!!!
Matthew 7 is an awesome Book, as is the entire Book of Books..and you will find, I am sure (if you haven't already), that everyword that procedeth out of the mouth of God, from Genesis to Revelation will begin to open up to you like it has never before...like a sweet melody...the instruments finely tuned...the lyrics perfectly fitting...together it all comes to sing a beautiful melody that enters first your ears and then your heart...until you cannot help but sing along...with everything that is within you...proclaimng it to the mountaintops!!!
Matthew 7:
Judging Others
1“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. 6“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
Ask, Seek, Knock...(You did this with all of your heart, strength, and soul thrillobyte!...and He gave precious gifts to you for the asking!)......
7“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. 9“Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
The Narrow and Wide Gates
13“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
A Tree and Its Fruit
15“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
The Wise and Foolish Builders
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.” 28When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching,29because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.
I thank God for this day...it has begun for me a great day to hear this straight away!
God Bless you thrillobyte...and may your continued search for His heart open up to you many more truths that are yet still left for you to discover...God Bless you on your precious journey! I will keep you in my prayers.
In Christ's everlasting love,
Verna.
Last edited by Verna Perry; 11-15-2010 at 07:20 AM..
My heart rejoyces for you! I thank our Father in heaven for your eyes He opened, and for your heart He softened...for lifting the darkened veil from your understanding with the light of the Holy Spirit of truth...Praise Him!...All the glory...all the honor and all the praise be to Him and Him alone!
I am so glad you now know and understand God's truth...and you better understand now because you took it upon yourself to take off all the preconceived ideas and beliefs you held in your heart for so long, from what you've been taught in error. You've been diligent in your seeking for the very heart of God's will for your life...I've watched (with great interest) you develope and grow spiritually for a long time now. You just didn't take it for granted what you heard...you kept an open mind and listened intentely and searched with all of your heart to find the true heart of our loving God and sought with all of your heart to find out what He wills for your life. God's love...that is what you have discovered...as well as what THAT love entails and demands, which is respect and obedience to appreciate it's vastness...it's many facets! He approves thrillobyte!...He approves!!!
Matthew 7 is an awesome Book, as is the entire Book of Books..and you will find, I am sure (if you haven't already), that everyword that procedeth out of the mouth of God, from Genesis to Revelation will begin to open up to you like it has never before...like a sweet melody...the instruments finely tuned...the lyrics perfectly fitting...together it all comes to sing a beautiful melody that enters first your ears and then your heart...until you cannot help but sing along...with everything that is within you...proclaimng it to the mountaintops!!!
Matthew 7:
Judging Others
1“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.</SPAN> 3“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?</SPAN> 4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?</SPAN> 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.</SPAN> 6“Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.
</SPAN> Ask, Seek, Knock...(You did this with all of your heart, strength, and soul thrillobyte!...and He gave precious gifts to you for the asking!)......
7“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.</SPAN> 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.</SPAN> 9“Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?</SPAN> 10Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?</SPAN> 11If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!</SPAN> 12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
</SPAN> The Narrow and Wide Gates
13“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.</SPAN> 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.</SPAN>
A Tree and Its Fruit 15“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.</SPAN>16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?</SPAN> 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.</SPAN> 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.</SPAN> 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.</SPAN> 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.</SPAN> 21“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.</SPAN>22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’</SPAN> 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
</SPAN> The Wise and Foolish Builders
24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.</SPAN> 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock.</SPAN>26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.</SPAN> 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”</SPAN> 28When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching,29because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.
I thank God for this day...it has begun for me a great day to hear this straight away!
God Bless you thrillobyte...and may your continued search for His heart open up to you many more truths that are yet still left for you to discover...God Bless you on your precious journey! I will keep you in my prayers.
In Christ's everlasting love,
Verna.
Correct me if I'm wrong--- you seem to sound quite "joyful" that someone else believes in annihiliation, just like you do...
"Kingdom of Heaven" does not equal "Heaven" (ie. the common meaning as a place of heavenly blissful after life).
The language is not quite as clear as you suggest for Jesus did not say "Not everyone will enter heaven", but He said "Not everyone will enter the Kingdom of heaven". There is more to it than that - study what the Kingdom is and you will realize it is not just some blissful heavenly life in some other "place" after we die. The Kingdom of God is within us...
The Kingdom of God is made up of kings, judges, priests, and ministers. That is what those who enter the Kingdom of God will be. Ask yourself this:
Who will they be reigning over, judging, preaching and ministering to?
Correct me if I'm wrong--- you seem to sound quite "joyful" that someone else believes in annihiliation, just like you do...
???? Can you explain?
Blessings,
Brian
If she believes it to be the truth, why wouldn't she be glad if she thought someone else had also found the truth?
It doesn't mean she's rejoicing in Annihilation per se, but in someone discovering the truth. Wouldn't you be all happy if someone decided UR was the truth? Well it's no different.
"Kingdom of Heaven" does not equal "Heaven" (ie. the common meaning as a place of heavenly blissful after life).
The language is not quite as clear as you suggest for Jesus did not say "Not everyone will enter heaven", but He said "Not everyone will enter the Kingdom of heaven". There is more to it than that - study what the Kingdom is and you will realize it is not just some blissful heavenly life in some other "place" after we die. The Kingdom of God is within us...
The Kingdom of God is made up of kings, judges, priests, and ministers. That is what those who enter the Kingdom of God will be. Ask yourself this:
Who will they be reigning over, judging, preaching and ministering to?
Umm, their own households. This is not an event that takes place AFTER the passing of the flesh, but rather, takes place WHILE you are in the flesh.
I think you need to retake a look at Kingdom theology, perhaps, if you are seeking THAT Truth.
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