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You know I should add that Christendom was actually a form of local universalism, so the question is strange. In Christendom one was a christian because one was born in a christian country (in Europe), so I think that technically, it is assumed that now there is no Christendom; if there is a Christendom, then universalism would not be a threat but its expansion. In this present universalist idea, one is a christian because one is just born, after all everyone gets there. This is like Islam where everyone is born Muslim and the social context hides consciousness from knowing this, I would assume that is what hides it from consciousness in the West for Christianity. Marxism is similar, and in the postmodern one can find this in such things as feminism, probably the early African American movement; after all, content is little, form is everything.
I didn't mean conform. The abstraction comes in when focus shifts to a whole rather than oneself. I will take a bible passage for an example to illustrate even though I know no bible passage now has any authority. But it may clarify my point.
Come unto me all you who labor and I will give you rest
The call is abstract and goes out into the environment of this man. Only god, as the one time, but no longer elevated conception of this term g-o-d, that an early christianity developed, could issue. A regular man, with language, that can only express the idea, as man's language only expresses the ideal; if this man is only a man, he is a nit wit and a side show barker.
When this call is heard, it is either rejected or accepted-there is no neutral spot, as a non-decision is a negative decision (it is not for all of ones life, either decision, as a Medes and Persian decision, but at and in the moment and it is only in this moment that one truly has life). The collective race does not decide, I don't decide for everyone else, my mom don't decide for me, neither pope or country, neither human race. Although the call goes out to an abstract mass, the response is only individual. I can only speak for myself and you can only speak for you, it is not important if the guy down the street likes it or not; only I can be concerned about myself-that is how we are made, and it is to me, and me only that that call goes to, and it is to you and to you only that it goes to.
One could do the same with the, "work out ones own salvation with fear and trembling", passage. But then when everyone shows up, only the dopes took this seriously, and the laugh is on them and Paul is a deluded fool leading other fools-there goes most of the NT.
"Many are called and few are chosen", and, "no one comes to the son unless the father draw him". These two become duds, the father is a dim wit but grandfatherly humorous forgetful fuddy that no longer has time to judge everyone; even though he is eterna. The son a dope, and the spirit a useless concoction (why have a spirit witness to another?): if christianity re-enters this being born of a vagina "one is in" stuff.
"Out of the night that covers me, black as a pit from pole to pole, I thank whatever god created me for my unconquerable soul"-modern christianity.
You know I should add that Christendom was actually a form of local universalism, so the question is strange. In Christendom one was a christian because one was born in a christian country (in Europe), so I think that technically, it is assumed that now there is no Christendom; if there is a Christendom, then universalism would not be a threat but its expansion. In this present universalist idea, one is a christian because one is just born, after all everyone gets there. This is like Islam where everyone is born Muslim and the social context hides consciousness from knowing this, I would assume that is what hides it from consciousness in the West for Christianity. Marxism is similar, and in the postmodern one can find this in such things as feminism, probably the early African American movement; after all, content is little, form is everything.
I didn't mean conform. The abstraction comes in when focus shifts to a whole rather than oneself. I will take a bible passage for an example to illustrate even though I know no bible passage now has any authority. But it may clarify my point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by allen antrim
Wrong button
Come unto me all you who labor and I will give you rest
The call is abstract and goes out into the environment of this man. Only god, as the one time, but no longer elevated conception of this term g-o-d, that an early christianity developed, could issue. A regular man, with language, that can only express the idea, as man's language only expresses the ideal; if this man is only a man, he is a nit wit and a side show barker.
When this call is heard, it is either rejected or accepted-there is no neutral spot, as a non-decision is a negative decision (it is not for all of ones life, either decision, as a Medes and Persian decision, but at and in the moment and it is only in this moment that one truly has life). The collective race does not decide, I don't decide for everyone else, my mom don't decide for me, neither pope or country, neither human race. Although the call goes out to an abstract mass, the response is only individual. I can only speak for myself and you can only speak for you, it is not important if the guy down the street likes it or not; only I can be concerned about myself-that is how we are made, and it is to me, and me only that that call goes to, and it is to you and to you only that it goes to.
One could do the same with the, "work out ones own salvation with fear and trembling", passage. But then when everyone shows up, only the dopes took this seriously, and the laugh is on them and Paul is a deluded fool leading other fools-there goes most of the NT.
"Many are called and few are chosen", and, "no one comes to the son unless the father draw him". These two become duds, the father is a dim wit but grandfatherly humorous forgetful fuddy that no longer has time to judge everyone; even though he is eterna. The son a dope, and the spirit a useless concoction (why have a spirit witness to another?): if christianity re-enters this being born of a vagina "one is in" stuff.
"Out of the night that covers me, black as a pit from pole to pole, I thank whatever god created me for my unconquerable soul"-modern christianity.
Lots said here... where to start?
Fwiw, the way I see "many are called, few are chosen" is that God has called all mankind through salvation which is finished. All are in whether they like it or not.
Those who are "called" are indeed "called," because like Saul, no one's looking for God until God calls him first.
The "problem" is that somehow, something happens after we are brought to knowledge of the Love of God, and to repentance... and we begin to believe the lie that "we chose Him." From "we love Him because He first loved us" to "He loves us because we love Him." And from "you have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you" to "I have chosen you, you have not chosen me."
So man starts glorifying self again, just like before.
And in order to give God 100% of the glory, we need to accept the fact that it is He who draws us to Him, we are reactants in His mix.
I don't quite understand the Universalism thingee, but is it safe to say that I could be a lifelong atheist who refuses to accept any notion of any god on what I find to be good grounds will be "saved" in the end and find myself in the good company of people who have spent their whole lives serving their gods?
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. Titus 2:11
The grace of God will continue to dawn on the hearts of all men until all are saved.
If the grace of God had never dawned upon your heart you wouldn't even be on this forum.
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. 2 Cor 4:6.
It was God who made what you and i have today, if you could even acknowledge this it would be start to us agreeing about the things of God.
Salvation has appeared to all men, yet scripture tells us that salvation is only for those who believe. Why do you continue to forget to mention that little word BELIEVE?
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave us His only son, (THAT WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL HAVE LIFE ETERNAL).
At what point do you begin to pay attention to what the Bible so clearly tells us?
Really?! Grace is for believers? And I thought God's grace was for everyone... "Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden..." "Lord, I believe -- help thou my unbelief"...
What you are saying is that salvation is a reward for those who believe. But the scriptures say salvation is a gift, not a reward.
Yes come unto me. Yet most of the worlds population refuses to come. Scripture tells us in John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave us His only son (THAT WHOSOEVER (BELIEVETH IN HIM) SHOULD NOT PERISH, BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.
Did you happen to notice the last words in that verse. (THAT WHOSOEVER (BELIEVETH IN HIM) SHALL NOT PERISH, BUT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE.)
John 3:36 tells us. He that (BELIEVETH) on the Son hath everlasting life:
(AND HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT THE SON SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; BUT THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDETH ON HIM.)
John 3:18 states. He that (believeth on him) (IS NOT CONDEMNED but he that believeth not (IS CONDEMNED ALREADY,)
And why is he condemned?
(BECAUSE HE HAS NOT BELIEVED IN THE NAME OF THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD).
Those who reject Christ are condemned, and will not receive the grace of God's salvation.
I don't quite understand the Universalism thingee, but is it safe to say that I could be a lifelong atheist who refuses to accept any notion of any god on what I find to be good grounds will be "saved" in the end and find myself in the good company of people who have spent their whole lives serving their gods?
We all return to where we came from, which is God.
When we return to the Father, we will know True Limitless Love, and be glad!
The weeping we do is for what we regret we hadn't done earlier, imo.. which is to love and show more compassion to our fellow man..
I had a thought about this thread, how "universalism" or "the reconciliation of all souls to God" could ever be considered "heresy" by the church, who is supposed to be the "bride" of Christ, the Son of the God of Love.
Why don't Christians like the idea of everyone going to heaven? What is it that bothers them? Their conscience, perhaps?
(NOTE: UR teaches that there IS in fact a judgment, NOT the popular slandering (as Paul himself experienced) that we can "sin as much as you like, you'll still be accepted)
UR doesn't tell people to sin. On the contrary, it tells people to repent and begin enjoying the New Life they have been freely given in Christ Jesus!!
Here is my thought, and I hope others partake in this reflection:
What happens to the pastor who begins to see that all will be saved?
Well, for 1, he has to come to grips with the fact that he is no better than anyone else. No more finger pointing, or judging, or telling sinners where they are going. His pride takes a lethal blow.
2, he has to take his faith to a deeper level. If everyone will be saved, then what indeed is God's judgment all about? How is God going to view me? Does what I do in this life make a difference, seeing that I am "in," and yet judged? What will my encounter with God mean to me? (Before, it was simply an "I believe God and the Bible, that's it, I'm in, period. But now, there must be some REAL soul-searching done!)
3, he starts to encourage people to do good, rather than threaten them. His desire is to "present every man perfect in Christ Jesus." Col. 1.28
I don't quite understand the Universalism thingee, but is it safe to say that I could be a lifelong atheist who refuses to accept any notion of any god on what I find to be good grounds will be "saved" in the end and find myself in the good company of people who have spent their whole lives serving their gods?
Yes, it is safe to say that. BUT<<<<< I would encourage you to delve more deeply into finding out what Universalism is all about because there will be consequences/judgment for nonbelievers. And there will be rewards for those who have been faithfully serving God.
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but he that believeth not (IS CONDEMNED ALREADY,) 