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Seriously, what's going on with this board tonight?
I'm not sure if you were taking me seriously (I hope not!) or thought I was being unnecessarily sarcastic. I just can't imagine why anyone would think that God would condemn someone to eternal torment for having had the misfortune to be born in the wrong place or at the wrong time. That's all I was saying.
I was about to come back into this thread and answer a couple of folks, but I see I don't need to. You've said it better than I ever could.
And, you've stated a Biblical precept which I suspect the UR folks will have a hard time refuting: "But, Christ was unnecessary, if God's plan was to ignore sin and save everyone with or without Christ anyway."
But this is a complete straw man. No UR folk teaches that "Christ was unnecessary" and "God's plan was to ignore sin".
God sent His son to take away the sin of the world and He was 100% successful. Christ was the atonement for the whole world. Done deal. It is finished. No "ignoring sin". No "unnecessary Christ". This point you raise is a complete straw man.
Thanks for the link Legoman, I've often wondered where folks got the notion that Christ had to die ... if God's plan was to save EVERYONE anyway(?).
Because God is not saving everyone "any way". He is saving them by what Christ did. Christ didn't die to save "some". He died to save the world - all people.
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You have no argument from me regarding God's amazing, wonderful love and grace -- or the fact that they apply to ALL and that Christ gave His life so that ALL could be saved.
But, the very life and death of Christ were necessary (according to God) to fully reveal God's love and Grace to ALL, so that ALL could freely choose ... to love --- or not love God; to believe --- or not believe God; to trust their lives to Christ .... or not to trust their lives to Christ, etc. While even 'faith is a gift of God" ... even a 'gift' must be accepted to be received.
The precursor to Christ was the Exodus from Egypt where ALL had the opportunity to believe God and faithfully pass under the "blood of the sacrificial lamb which they, not God, placed over their doorpost". Couldn't God have simply saved everyone anyway?
Yes He could. What you are missing is that man's "free" will is not stronger than God's will. Man resists God only because God's spirit has not come on to the man yet.
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Jesus Christ is the "lamb of God who came to take away the sin of the world." --- But, Christ was unnecessary, if God's plan was to ignore sin and save everyone with or without Christ anyway. If scripture consistently (precept upon precept) said, in any way, shape or form, that ALL would be saved ... believers and non-believers alike, ... with or apart from Christ, --- then, praise God, that would be God's plan! But, in over 30-years of preaching and Bible teaching, sometimes 4-5 times per week, I've never seen anything like that in scripture.
Of course you've never seen anything that says Christ is unnecessary. NO ONE IS SAYING THAT. Christ is absolutely necessary - He is the savior of the world! This is not difficult. The Savior of the world saves the world, otherwise He is not the Savior of the world.
I've just shown you 100+ scriptures that indicate God's intention for all. Its plain to see, and its really good news.
But this is a complete straw man. No UR folk teaches that "Christ was unnecessary" and "God's plan was to ignore sin".
God sent His son to take away the sin of the world and He was 100% successful. Christ was the atonement for the whole world. Done deal. It is finished. No "ignoring sin". No "unnecessary Christ". This point you raise is a complete straw man.
No, it isn't a straw man. If everyone is going to be saved without having to accept Christ, what was His life, death and resurrection for? Why would He invite all to come unto Him if coming unto Him isn't necessary for Salvation?
You're making the case that God's will is stronger and more important than man's will, and it is. But, it's God's will that man have a free will to exercise! Is it beyond the power of God to grant us the right to free will?
But, hypothetically, 'suppose I've just been blind and wrong for all these years. Then, it really doesn't matter to me, because according the the UR philosophy, I'll be saved and spend eternity with God anyway! However, suppose you ... and those the UR folks seem so eager to convert are wrong (Even you have got to admit that there is plenty of scripture to suggest that possibility exists). Then where does that leave you... and them???
OK this kind of thinking is all wrong. I will try to illustrate why.
First are you saying that believing Jesus will save all people sends you to hell? That's a new one. Or are you saying that little old me can take away the salvation of someone else, thwarting our all mighty sovereign God? Really think about this for a second.
Secondly:
What you are trying to do above is called "hedging your bet", when what you should be concerned about is finding out the truth. This is a variant of Pascal's wager. Essentially you are picking the worst possible outcome as "truth" instead of concerning yourself with what the truth actually is.
Pascal's wager fails for 2 reasons.
1. There may be an even worse alternative that you hadn't considered. For example if Islam turns out to be the truth, then you hedged on the wrong religion.
2. Hedging for the worst outcome causes much harm and actually turns people away from God.
We are not here to hedge our bets, we are here to find out the truth. If you can't handle the truth, then continue with your wager that there is a dreadful eternity waiting for most of mankind. That way you will "have your bases covered". Is that what you think God wants? Is this simply "fire insurance" you are worried about?
No, it isn't a straw man. If everyone is going to be saved without having to accept Christ, what was His life, death and resurrection for? Why would He invite all to come unto Him if coming unto Him isn't necessary for Salvation?
Ok Stillkit, please listen carefully to what I am saying. All will come to Christ. Christ is 100% the plan for salvation. No one will be saved without Christ. Christ will have 100% victory and will do what He came to do: save the world. Therefore Christ is 100% necessary.
Christ's life taught us how we are to live. He showed us. He commanded us what to do. He was the example: LOVE. He fulfilled all the commands with the new command: LOVE. Love God, love your neighbor, love your enemy.
Christ's death was the atonement for our sins, not only ours, but the whole worlds. In that death He paid the wages of sin: which is death.
Christ's resurrection was the proof that He defeated death, and it is the pattern to come for all men. In Adam all die, in Christ all will live.
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You're making the case that God's will is stronger and more important than man's will, and it is. But, it's God's will that man have a free will to exercise! Is it beyond the power of God to grant us the right to free will?
God never gave man a free will. Scripture doesn't say any such thing. But scripture does say that God directs our steps, God draws men to Himself, God grants belief, God leads men to repent, God works all things according to His purpose, and His purpose and plan is to have all men be saved and be headed up in Christ. Doesn't sound like a very "free" will to me. Yes men make choices, but they will always choose according to their nature, and that nature is very carnal UNTIL God converts a man. Salvation is a 100% complete work of God my friend, that is why none can boast about it.
Every knee will bow.
Every tongue will confess Him as Lord.
Every tongue will swear allegiance to Him.
God has declared it in Isaiah 45:22-23, Romans 14, Phil 2:9-11. Do you understand what it means to swear allegiance? It means to swear an oath of loyalty. You cannot fake that because then it would not be a true oath of loyalty.
Where do you think man's alleged "free will" fits in there? It doesn't, other than that God will change all men and turn them back to Him so they will see and understand and confess that Christ is their savior.
So we see there are two big myths here:
1. Man believes Christ won't save the world. God really wants to save everyone, but its not going to happen.
2. Man believes he has free will to thwart God's plan. Poor God is stuck between a rock and a hard place because of this alleged free will. All God can do is burn'em for eternity...
And thus that is the absurdity of "traditional" thinking...
Ok Stillkit, please listen carefully to what I am saying. All will come to Christ. Christ is 100% the plan for salvation. No one will be saved without Christ. Christ will have 100% victory and will do what He came to do: save the world. Therefore Christ is 100% necessary.
Christ's life taught us how we are to live. He showed us. He commanded us what to do. He was the example: LOVE. He fulfilled all the commands with the new command: LOVE. Love God, love your neighbor, love your enemy.
Christ's death was the atonement for our sins, not only ours, but the whole worlds. In that death He paid the wages of sin: which is death.
Christ's resurrection was the proof that He defeated death, and it is the pattern to come for all men. In Adam all die, in Christ all will live.
God never gave man a free will. Scripture doesn't say any such thing. But scripture does say that God directs our steps, God draws men to Himself, God grants belief, God leads men to repent, God works all things according to His purpose, and His purpose and plan is to have all men be saved and be headed up in Christ. Doesn't sound like a very "free" will to me. Yes men make choices, but they will always choose according to their nature, and that nature is very carnal UNTIL God converts a man. Salvation is a 100% complete work of God my friend, that is why none can boast about it.
Every knee will bow.
Every tongue will confess Him as Lord.
Every tongue will swear allegiance to Him.
God has declared it in Isaiah 45:22-23, Romans 14, Phil 2:9-11. Do you understand what it means to swear allegiance? It means to swear an oath of loyalty. You cannot fake that because then it would not be a true oath of loyalty.
Where do you think man's alleged "free will" fits in there? It doesn't, other than that God will change all men and turn them back to Him so they will see and understand and confess that Christ is their savior.
So we see there are two big myths here:
1. Man believes Christ won't save the world. God really wants to save everyone, but its not going to happen.
2. Man believes he has free will to thwart God's plan. Poor God is stuck between a rock and a hard place because of this alleged free will. All God can do is burn'em for eternity...
And thus that is the absurdity of "traditional" thinking...
God BEGAN His relationship with mankind by giving them free will. Do you think God directed Adam and Eve to rebel? No, of course not. They had the right to chose, a right He allowed them out of love.
God knows love can't be forced, so He gave us the the power and authority to love Him of our own free will. But, without another alternative, there is no choice, no free will. Just as with Adam and Eve, we have the God-given right to chose God's way or our way and that idea carries on right through Scripture from Genesis to Revelations.
And, just as with the laws of nature, there are consequences for our choices. When Adam and Eve chose to ignore God's rules, they suffered banishment from the Garden and separation from God. That's a perfect picture the choice of salvation through Jesus Christ. Accept Christ (do it God's way) and eternal life is the reward for having chosen right. Reject Christ (do it our way, ala Adam and Eve) and the penalty is separation from God.
Why would He give Adam and Eve the choice to rebel, and hold them accountable for choosing wrong, and then not hold the rest of us to the same standard?
God BEGAN His relationship with mankind by giving them free will. Do you think God directed Adam and Eve to rebel? No, of course not. They had the right to chose, a right He allowed them out of love.
God knows love can't be forced, so He gave us the the power and authority to love Him of our own free will. But, without another alternative, there is no choice, no free will. Just as with Adam and Eve, we have the God-given right to chose God's way or our way and that idea carries on right through Scripture from Genesis to Revelations.
And, just as with the laws of nature, there are consequences for our choices. When Adam and Eve chose to ignore God's rules, they suffered banishment from the Garden and separation from God. That's a perfect picture the choice of salvation through Jesus Christ. Accept Christ (do it God's way) and eternal life is the reward for having chosen right. Reject Christ (do it our way, ala Adam and Eve) and the penalty is separation from God.
Why would He give Adam and Eve the choice to rebel, and hold them accountable for choosing wrong, and then not hold the rest of us to the same standard?
I never said we don't make choices. I never said we aren't held accountable. There are always consequences, just as you said. We are held to account. We will give account for what we have done. Do you know what "giving an account of your life is"? It is a confession - as in a confession of the sins you have committed. We will all give account before the Lord - we will all confess our sins to Him. If we confess our sins (and we will), He is faithful to forgive us (1 John 1:9).
We all suffer the consequences of our decisions. This happens every day. Just as it did for Adam and Eve. Adam & Eve weren't sent to an eternal hell. But they did suffer consequences, just as we all do.
But there is no free choice. All choices are made because of some reason or cause. Cause and effect.
Free will cannot simply mean "choice", for computers make choices, cats make choices, even mosquitos make choices and no one claims a mosquito or a computer has free will.
We do make choices, but not choices free from cause or influence. Your example of love as a "free will" choice is actually a terrible example because love is far from being "free" from anything. Is the only reason you love your wife (or spouse) because of "free will"? Of course not. I love my wife because she is pretty, she is kind, she takes care of me when I'm sick, and she is a good cook to boot. All of these things influenced and ultimately caused me to fall in love with her. There was no "choice" there, it simply is. No one can walk down the street and say "I'm going to choose of my own free will to fall in love today". It doesn't work that way. Love is something that happens to you.
Scripturally speaking, we love God, because He first loved us. It doesn't say "we love God because of our free will". That is a man made myth. See that word "because"? "be cause": that is the cause that caused us to love God: He loved us first.
Regardless if you agree with this or not, it still doesn't change the fact that God has already declared every knee will bow and every tongue will swear allegiance. Its a done deal.
I'm not sure if you were taking me seriously (I hope not!) or thought I was being unnecessarily sarcastic. I just can't imagine why anyone would think that God would condemn someone to eternal torment for having had the misfortune to be born in the wrong place or at the wrong time. That's all I was saying.
NO no, I know you were being sarcastic and I concur.
I never said we don't make choices. I never said we aren't held accountable. There are always consequences, just as you said. We are held to account. We will give account for what we have done. Do you know what "giving an account of your life is"? It is a confession - as in a confession of the sins you have committed. We will all give account before the Lord - we will all confess our sins to Him. If we confess our sins (and we will), He is faithful to forgive us (1 John 1:9).
We all suffer the consequences of our decisions. This happens every day. Just as it did for Adam and Eve. Adam & Eve weren't sent to an eternal hell. But they did suffer consequences, just as we all do.
But there is no free choice. All choices are made because of some reason or cause. Cause and effect.
Free will cannot simply mean "choice", for computers make choices, cats make choices, even mosquitos make choices and no one claims a mosquito or a computer has free will.
We do make choices, but not choices free from cause or influence. Your example of love as a "free will" choice is actually a terrible example because love is far from being "free" from anything. Is the only reason you love your wife (or spouse) because of "free will"? Of course not. I love my wife because she is pretty, she is kind, she takes care of me when I'm sick, and she is a good cook to boot. All of these things influenced and ultimately caused me to fall in love with her. There was no "choice" there, it simply is. No one can walk down the street and say "I'm going to choose of my own free will to fall in love today". It doesn't work that way. Love is something that happens to you.
Scripturally speaking, we love God, because He first loved us. It doesn't say "we love God because of our free will". That is a man made myth. See that word "because"? "be cause": that is the cause that caused us to love God: He loved us first.
Regardless if you agree with this or not, it still doesn't change the fact that God has already declared every knee will bow and every tongue will swear allegiance. Its a done deal.
Love is always a choice. At some point, in any relationship, you must chose to continue loving that person, you must make a conscious decision not to quit. Love does not come and go like a breeze, affection and attraction do, and that's not the same thing. Anyone who has ever been married should understand this clearly as there are times in a marriage when the other person does something so hurtful, so wrong, that it causes you to question whether or not you will remain committed to the relationship and force you to ask yourself why you love that person, or even if you do at all.
It's the same way with our love for Christ. Our relationship with Him is spoken of many times in terms of a marriage and in terms of finishing the race set before us. We have the option to quit, to stop loving Him. We must chose and that choice has eternal consequences.
Even Jesus himself had the option of refusing to do God's will. If He didnt, why did Satan bother to tempt Him in the wilderness? He was offered the chance to reject God, but refused it. Had He not been capable of doing otherwise, there would have been no temptation to do so. But, He was empowered by the Spirit of God because of His faith in God. Without faith, it is impossible to please God and Jesus had it.
And, what is faith? In the Greek, it's the word "pistis," which means to believe the truth of something. It comes from the word "peitho," which means to believe based upon the evidence. In other words, it's a choice to believe based upon the preponderance of the evidence, just as a jury must make a choice between the guilt or innocence of the accused based upon the available evidence. See? Even faith, by which we access the power of the Spirit is a choice!
Choice and consequences permeate the scriptures, from beginning to end, and those consequences carry right on to the end of all things when every human being will be judged according to either his faith in Christ or the works of his own hands, which cannot and will not be sufficient to enter the rest of eternal life. Each of us will stand convicted of our own sins, our own rebellions, our own rejection of the will of God EXCEPT those who have conciously and deliberately chosen to allow Christ to pay the penalty for us. Those who have rejected His offer of payment of their debt to God will be condemned. Yes, they will acknowledge Christ, but it will be too late. They made their choice in this life, a choice to reject God and reject Christ, and they will suffer the consequences of their choice.
God is a God who loves justice and it would be unjust for Him to make Himself a liar by saying to them, "Never mind. I didn't really mean for you to have to chose, so come on in and take your place right beside those who did chose Christ deliberately."
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Choices. God-given choices will determine our eternal fate.
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That's a new one. Or are you saying that little old me can take away the salvation of someone else, thwarting our all mighty sovereign God? Really think about this for a second.
