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John 3:5 is speaking of water baptism. We know this because we see proof of people being added to the church/kingdom on the day of Pentecost when they believe and were baptized.
40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. 41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Those who lived and died prior to Pentecost could not be born of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit was not given until Pentecost.
This is not to say that people who lived during the OT times didn't have the Holy Spirit. Some selected people did, i.e. judges, prophets, etc.
Today, the Holy Spirit is available to ALL baptized believers. That is the difference between John's baptism and christian baptism. John's baptism did not give the gift of the Holy Spirit. Christian baptism does.
Katie
Wonder why so many people skirt around Acts Chapter 2 ? In fact all of Acts ?
John 3:5 is speaking of water baptism. We know this because we see proof of people being added to the church/kingdom on the day of Pentecost when they believe and were baptized.
That's an interpretive assumption you're making. How does being added to the church (visible Kingdom?) prove that Joh 3:5 is speaking of "baptism"? Jesus used the word "water", not "baptism". Why not simply use the word baptism, as He did in Mat 28:19, if this is what Jesus meant? Or, at least have it's meaning given within the narrative? John often defined the meaning of words within his narrative (example: Joh 5:18). Why would John not do this with the term "water", if Jesus was actually referring to "baptism" in Joh 3:5? How do we not know that "water" was really not referring to baptism at all, but rather drinking from the "living water" that Jesus would give to those who asked of Him, such as in Joh 4:10-14?
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Those who lived and died prior to Pentecost could not be born of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit was not given until Pentecost.
Well that's interesting...Are you saying that Abraham, Moses, David, all the OT saints and believers, including John the baptist, never did "see" the Kingdom of God, let alone "enter in"?
And are you saying they never will?
And if they will, how so?
What is your definition of the Kingdom of God and where is this Kingdom found?
Do you see where this is going? The interpretive assumptions you've made in Joh 3:5, and the doctrines you've built upon those assumptions, might not all pan out as you're expecting.
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This is not to say that people who lived during the OT times didn't have the Holy Spirit. Some selected people did, i.e. judges, prophets, etc.
Today, the Holy Spirit is available to ALL baptized believers. That is the difference between John's baptism and christian baptism. John's baptism did not give the gift of the Holy Spirit. Christian baptism does.
Katie
Are you saying the Spirit of God is restricted through the ordinance of baptism, after Pentecost? This would contradict what Peter said of those who received the Spirit, through hearing the proclamation of the Gospel, prior to being baptized:
Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
It would also contradict the freedom of the Spirit, the Spirit regenerating when, where and how, apart from the will of man:
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Do you make a distinction between "regeneration" (being born of the Spirit) and "receiving" the Spirit of God?
If so, how.
And if not, why so?
Don't really mean to pick your brain, but I enjoy the conversation we're having here...
8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound therof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth:so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Most commentators have held that this means: "As the wind moves mysteriously, so does the Spirit, and it breathes upon whom it will, effecting the inward change called the birth of the Spirit arbitrarily." This view I believe due to a wrong translation, sanctioned, not by Greek, but by current theology. Let it be noted that: (1) Exactly the same Greek term is rendered "wind and "Spirit" in this verse. It is a violation of all law that the same word should experience so radical a change of meaning in the same sentence. (2) That the word ( pneuma) is not translated "wind" elsewhere, although it occurs scores of times in the New Testament, but is always rendered " Spirit." (3) Another word in the Greek, anemos, is usually used to represent "wind." (4) This erroneous idea creates a confusion of figures. It makes Christ to say: " The wind blows where it listeth; so is (not the Spirit, but) every one born of the Spirit." It affirms of him who is born just what is affirmed of the wind, and thing the Savior never did. These facts are sufficient to show that the rendering "wind " is wrong. All we have to do is to translate pneuma here, as is done in the latter part of the verse and elsewhere in the New Testament. The verse then reads: "The Spirit ( pneuma) breathes where it pleases and thou hearest the voice therof, but canst not tell whence it comes nor whiter it goes.So ( by hearing it voice) is everyone born of the Spirit" (pneuma).The meaning is : The Spirit breathes where it wills and you recognise its manifestations by its voice; by the words spoken by men of God as the Holy Spirit gives them utterance. You cannot tell whence the Spirit comes or wither it goes, but you can hear its voice when it dose come , so, by hearing the voice of the Spirit, is every one born of the Spirit? He who receives by faith the communications of the Spirit is born of the Spirit. The birth of the Spirit is not the same thing as the gift of the Spirit. To those who are born of the Spirit is given. "Because ye are sons, God hath sent the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying , Abba, Father" ( Gal.4:6.) Hence, in harmony with the above view, Peter says, "Being born again, not by corruptible seed, but incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever." B.W. Johnson 1833 - 1894
DXCC
Sounds like you enjoy commentaries...
If I could recommend something to you....question all the commentaries and theology books you're reading. They're good for information and comparing different views, but don't rely on them without fully investigating it for yourself.
Try and find a literal bible translation to read from such as the YLT or LITV or perhaps even a good Greek-English and Hebrew-English interlinear, and supplement it with a couple of good lexicons that show the various ways in which a particular word is used or translated throughout the scriptures.
Then, cast away all your preconceived doctrines and teachings of men, and call on Jesus and ask Him to teach you using His Spirit. And follow whatever Jesus reveals in His word, regardless of what the world says.
I think most here quote from the KJV, not because it's the most accurate or literal, but rather it's probably the most familiar and memorized. We could certainly use the YLT as a more literal translation, as here:
Joh 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'
...you mind my asking what that "everything it was supposed to accomplish" is? Katzpur...?...if not any of the one's I listed in the above post?
My baptism was the means by which I entered into a covenant relationship with my Savior. As long as I keep the terms of the covenant, repenting whenever I fall short, I have His promise that He will be my advocate with the Father and that I will attain eternal life in God's presence. He doesn't ask for perfection, but He asks for the best I have to give. That's what I'm giving.
He doesn't ask for perfection, but He asks for the best I have to give. That's what I'm giving.
I like that. We should do our humanly best to be as obedient to God as we can, and not get caught in pitfalls that allow us to fall short habitually, and not justify as some say. We can't give excuses for our actions, but with prayer, intense bible study, and meditating on Gods word, then and only then we can grow more like Christ.
My baptism was the means by which I entered into a covenant relationship with my Savior. As long as I keep the terms of the covenant, repenting whenever I fall short, I have His promise that He will be my advocate with the Father and that I will attain eternal life in God's presence. He doesn't ask for perfection, but He asks for the best I have to give. That's what I'm giving.
Salvation is the only subject where there can be no compromise of doctrine.
Conversion is linked with repentance. True repentance is a covenant with God to cease from all known sin completely and forever, with the mind that even if it were to cost you your life to obey, you would do it.
Repentance is a one time event, and that one must cease from willful sin completely and forever in order to "live".
If a man commits sin, he has not truly repented in the first place, or, if he has repented, and turns back by committing deliberate/willfull sin "in the day that he sinneth" he shall not live.
If you are having to sin and repent and and repent sin and repent sin and repent sin and repent...etc...etc...ect...you have not truly repented. You are playing games...and you are not keeping any kind of "terms" that make up the Covenant of Promises between God and His own.
No such thing as a "sinning saint."
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