Mark 16:15-16 DID JESUS SAY IT? (moral, experience, Christian, blessings)
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The OT saints entered the kingdom by the faith in God and belief in His promises. Since being baptized into Christ's death (Romans 6:3), didn't exist for them they entered the kingdom through some other means.
How does one do this when dead in sin, unless first being born of the Spirit? We have to remember, that the discussion Christ had with Nicodemus was within the OT context and scriptures.
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The saw or entered the Kingdom by some means other than being born again of water and the Spirit. Remember Jesus told His disciples that if He went away He would send them another Comforter. And obvious reference to the Holy Spirit, who, apparently, was not yet resident in the world.
Actually, the Spirit was very much apart of the OT saints. Perhaps not in the fullness of Pentecost, or "resident" in the world at large, but non-the-less working through and in God's people. David as an obvious example (Psa 51:11).
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The OT saints had to have entered the Kingdom through a way other than being born of water and the Spirit since the Spirit was not yet resident in the world of men. Yes, He came into the world for specific purposes and sometimes may have even stayed with a certain individual, but today He is indwelling all Christians not just some.
Again, what you're proposing here would contradict what Jesus said, if you believe that Jesus spoke of water baptism as being a requirement to enter the Kingdom. Also, it would seem on the surface at least, to contradict Eze 36:27 and 37:14.
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Albrecht Oepke, an expert in the Greek language, says that the noun loutron is a baptismal term and always refers to baptism. So, I'm not approaching John 3:5 with a preconceived notion. In fact, in my case, my preconceived notion was that this verse did not refer to baptism, nor did Titus 3:5. But after further study I discovered that my preconceived notion was wrong and these verses do, in fact, refer to baptism.
My own research has told me otherwise. We're not really covering any new ground here. Anyway, it's been an interesting conversation...
I think you are contradicting yourself here. You said we don't need faith or obedience to be saved. But then your last paragraph says "those who believe this truth are imputed with Christ's righteousness.
Katie
The distinction I brought out (or at least I tried to make here ) was that our justification before God is by the work of Christ alone. The term "justification" is a legal and forensic declaration by God, whereby the sinner is declared justified on the merits of Christ (Rom 5:18). Imputed righteousness on the other hand, not justification, is the act of reckoning to our account Christ's righteousness that we, by grace, receive through faith, and this faith is a gift from God.
It's not that we don't need faith or obedience or righteousness to be saved, but that it is not our own faith, or our own obedience, or our own righteousness that justifies us before God. The faith, the obedience, the work and the righteousness of Christ, imputed to us, does.
If you believe "water" refers to "water baptism", how then will the OT saints enter the Kingdom?
People from the OT enter the kingdom the same way we do, by the blood of Jesus. Remember, when the people from the OT made their annual sacrifices, their sins were not forgiven. They were rolled forward a year...year after year. When Jesus died on the cross, he died once for ALL. His blood reached backward to those from before the cross and forward to those beyond the cross, like us. For us to have access to his blood, we must be baptized into his death, burial and ressurrection. That is what is meant by "obey the gospel." The gospel is the death, burial and ressurrection of Jesus. So yes, John 3:5 is talking about water baptism. It is how we, those beyond the cross, contact the blood of Jesus, and enter the kingdom.
This is why DXCC and GreatDivide keep using Acts 2:38, Mk 16:15-16, 1Peter 3:21 over and over again. It is WHEN we are baptized, our sins are forgiven and we are saved. It is then God saves us by his grace.
The distinction I brought out (or at least I tried to make here ) was that our justification before God is by the work of Christ alone. The term "justification" is a legal and forensic declaration by God, whereby the sinner is declared justified on the merits of Christ (Rom 5:18). Imputed righteousness on the other hand, not justification, is the act of reckoning to our account Christ's righteousness that we, by grace, receive through faith, and this faith is a gift from God.
It's not that we don't need faith or obedience or righteousness to be saved, but that it is not our own faith, or our own obedience, or our own righteousness that justifies us before God. The faith, the obedience, the work and the righteousness of Christ, imputed to us, does.
Do you see the difference here?
Yes I do see what you are saying, but can you give me some scriptures that say how and when Christ's work and righteousness is imputed to us? First of all, I have never seen the word "imputed" in the Bible. Maybe I missed it? The way I am understanding what you wrote is that a person needs to do nothing, nada, zippo, and gets imputed with the work and righteousness of Jesus. We just get zapped with this gift of faith. Give me some scriptures to show this. Thanks.
People from the OT enter the kingdom the same way we do, by the blood of Jesus. Remember, when the people from the OT made their annual sacrifices, their sins were not forgiven. They were rolled forward a year...year after year. When Jesus died on the cross, he died once for ALL. His blood reached backward to those from before the cross and forward to those beyond the cross, like us. For us to have access to his blood, we must be baptized into his death, burial and ressurrection. That is what is meant by "obey the gospel." The gospel is the death, burial and ressurrection of Jesus. So yes, John 3:5 is talking about water baptism. It is how we, those beyond the cross, contact the blood of Jesus, and enter the kingdom.
This is why DXCC and GreatDivide keep using Acts 2:38, Mk 16:15-16, 1Peter 3:21 over and over again. It is WHEN we are baptized, our sins are forgiven and we are saved. It is then God saves us by his grace.
Katie
And, that's why I keep saying (or telling you in a nice way ) you don't really believe the Gospel. If you actually believed the Gospel, you would know that your sins were (past tense) forgiven by Christ on the cross (1 Cor 15:1-4, Rom 5:8-9) and that God has reconciled you (present tense) to Himself (2 Cor 5:19).
I appreciate this conversation, however, as I told the other poster, we're really not covering any new ground here. For myself, it's time to move on, take care...
Yes I do see what you are saying, but can you give me some scriptures that say how and when Christ's work and righteousness is imputed to us? First of all, I have never seen the word "imputed" in the Bible. Maybe I missed it? The way I am understanding what you wrote is that a person needs to do nothing, nada, zippo, and gets imputed with the work and righteousness of Jesus. We just get zapped with this gift of faith. Give me some scriptures to show this. Thanks.
Katie
Sorry, I'll try and answer this one too...
Imputation is taken from the Greek word λογίζομαι and is found in a number of scriptures. Sometimes it is translated as "account", "reckon" or simply "imputed", depending on the translation you're reading. If you have a Greek lexicon, you can find the word and the places where it is used and how it was translated in your version.
Rom 4:5 tells us how, or when righteousness is imputed. Actually the 4th Chapter of Romans goes into it in detail using Abraham as our example.
This, your statement above, is on the verge of laughable Katie if it weren't so serious of an issue. It absolutely amazes me how you all can so frankly make such a statement when you no more observe the Commandments of God than the man in the moon.
You are not obedient to the Commands of God, and just like you tell others, you will not enter the Kingdom of God either Katie. We must obey? you say...? You don't.
You said:
"It is a command of Jesus. We are justified by faith, obedient faith. We are saved by grace. But if we do not obey the commands of Jesus, we will not enter the kingdom. We must obey the gospel."
You don't truly believe that...do you...? You can't. You don't even believe this statement spoken by the mouth of God Himself...
..."If you love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15.
You don't even believe this statement, also spoken by the mouth of God Himself...
"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." John 14:21.
...or this...
"Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.' John 14:23.
...or this...
"If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.' John 15:10.
...or this...
"We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands." 1 John 2:3.
...or this...
"This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome," 1 John 5:3.
...or this...
"And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love" 2 John 1:6.
Please explain your statement above Katie...how is it that you make such a statement and you don't even believe it enough to abide by it yourself?
Do you keep God's commmandments Katie? No.
Do you keep the Fourth Commandment Katie? No.
Then if not...you transgress the law of God...because to transgress one you have transgressed them all...willingly you transgress the Fourth one...because it is not conveinent for you...the same goes for all who do not keep the seventh day Sabbath holy unto God. It isn't conveinent for you to do so...so you rebel against it and reject it...yet you all come back with statements like the one of yours above...quite hypocritical...don't you think? I sure do.
Please clear me up on this...would you?
In Christ love...and prayerfully in His truth,
Verna
This thread is not about keeping the Sabbath. The subject is baptism. If you want to debate the sabbath then start another thread. I'll be happy to discuss it.
Katie
[quote=AlabamaStorm;19090292]Sorry, I'll try and answer this one too...
Imputation is taken from the Greek word λογίζομαι and is found in a number of scriptures. Sometimes it is translated as "account", "reckon" or simply "imputed", depending on the translation you're reading. If you have a Greek lexicon, you can find the word and the places where it is used and how it was translated in your version.
Rom 4:5 tells us how, or when righteousness is imputed. Actually the 4th Chapter of Romans goes into it in detail using Abraham as our example.
Take care, [/QUOTE
Can you give me some of those "imputed" scriptures? Thanks.
Katie
And, that's why I keep saying (or telling you in a nice way ) you don't really believe the Gospel. If you actually believed the Gospel, you would know that your sins were (past tense) forgiven by Christ on the cross (1 Cor 15:1-4, Rom 5:8-9) and that God has reconciled you (present tense) to Himself (2 Cor 5:19).
I appreciate this conversation, however, as I told the other poster, we're really not covering any new ground here. For myself, it's time to move on, take care...
There's a big difference between believing the gospel and obeying the gospel my friend. Read Thessalonians to learn what happens to those who obey not the gospel.
Anyway, sorry you feel that way. It was nice chatting with you and hearing what your views are.
Baptism is not a work of the law, nor is it a good deed. It is a command of Jesus. We are justified by faith, obedient faith. We are saved by grace. But if we do not obey the commands of Jesus, we will not enter the kingdom. We must obey the gospel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry
This, your statement above, is on the verge of laughable Katie if it weren't so serious of an issue. It absolutely amazes me how you all can so frankly make such a statement when you no more observe the Commandments of God than the man in the moon.
You are not obedient to the Commands of God, and just like you tell others, you will not enter the Kingdom of God either Katie. We must obey? you say...? You don't.
You said:
"It is a command of Jesus. We are justified by faith, obedient faith. We are saved by grace. But if we do not obey the commands of Jesus, we will not enter the kingdom. We must obey the gospel."
You don't truly believe that...do you...? You can't. You don't even believe this statement spoken by the mouth of God Himself...
..."If you love Me, keep My commandments." John 14:15.
You don't even believe this statement, also spoken by the mouth of God Himself...
"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." John 14:21.
...or this...
"Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.' John 14:23.
...or this...
"If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.' John 15:10.
...or this...
"We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands." 1 John 2:3.
...or this...
"This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome," 1 John 5:3.
...or this...
"And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love" 2 John 1:6.
Please explain your statement above Katie...how is it that you make such a statement and you don't even believe it enough to abide by it yourself?
Do you keep God's commmandments Katie? No.
Do you keep the Fourth Commandment Katie? No.
Then if not...you transgress the law of God...because to transgress one you have transgressed them all...willingly you transgress the Fourth one...because it is not conveinent for you...the same goes for all who do not keep the seventh day Sabbath holy unto God. It isn't conveinent for you to do so...so you rebel against it and reject it...yet you all come back with statements like the one of yours above...quite hypocritical...don't you think? I sure do.
Please clear me up on this...would you?
In Christ love...and prayerfully in His truth,
Verna
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
This thread is not about keeping the Sabbath. The subject is baptism. If you want to debate the sabbath then start another thread. I'll be happy to discuss it.
Katie
You are the one who stated, right here on this thread, that, "We are justified by faith, obedient faith. We are saved by grace. But if we do not obey the commands of Jesus, we will not enter the kingdom. We must obey the commands of Jesus."...and I have simply responded to your statement...and I would appreciate a sincere answer to it.
It's about "obeying the commands"...it's about "obedient faith"...it's about "not entering the kingdom if we do not obey His commands"...<<all of which you stated yourself.
Blessings,
Verna.
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) was that our justification before God is by the work of Christ alone. The term "justification" is a legal and forensic declaration by God, whereby the sinner is declared justified on the merits of Christ (Rom 5:18). Imputed righteousness on the other hand, not justification, is the act of reckoning to our account Christ's righteousness that we, by grace, receive through faith, and this faith is a gift from God. 
