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The answer to universalism is really quite simple.
There are two resurrections. Jesus described them as ...Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
So, it is left then for us to determine when these events take place. Paul tells us clearly of the first in.... 1Co 15:53,54 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
....and Jesus tells us when it takes place,
Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
So we have established that the first resurrection is exclusively for those faithful in Christ and that they are raised at the "last day". What then is the last day?
John 14:1 ¶ Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
1 Thess. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The "last day" is clearly the day of Jesus second coming. The righteous dead are raised, and those wicked who are not in Christ are destroyed by the brightness of His appearing.
And what then of those wicked who are already dead at the time of the second coming? Well, that is where the second resurrection comes in.
Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The wicked dead are raised at the end of the 1000 years.So two resurrections the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked, each separated by the 1000 years. And what of the resurrection of the wicked? Jesus says that it is a resurrection of damnation! Thus the wicked are not raised to eternal life in glory as the universalists would have you believe, but to the second death, a death from which there is no further hope, no further opportunity to reconciliation, and no more resurrection.
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death......21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
There is no reference to any resurrection from the second death. The death is eternal. Never ending. It is a death from which there can be no deliverance.
Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it (the New Jerusalem) any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.....22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.....14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
There is no inconsistency when it comes to the will of God desiring that no-one should perish. The fact is God does not always have His way. His will is not always done. If it were, why then does Jesus admonish us to pray that it would be done in the Lord's prayer?
It is not God's will that people are destroyed by typhoons, hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, and other disasters. It is not God's will that people are sick and dying of disease such as aids and TB and heart disease and obesity and diabetes. But people do die, and they do suffer, and they are sick. God's will is for all to be saved, yes, but the sad truth is not all will be.
Revelation describes something very different. In fact not an atheist in sight. Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. 11 ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
There are 2 groups described in these verses which relate exclusively to these last days. One group is deceived by the beast and the false prophet into worshipping the beast.The second group have their names written in the book of life and are therefore worshippers of the true God. The common factor uniting all is that they are all worshipping! Therefore not an atheist among any of them.
For an article on the true identity of the 'Antichrist' see here:Antichrist Revealed « Repairing the Breach.
Looks like some more Jack Chic trash talk against Catholics...
There is no inconsistency when it comes to the will of God desiring that no-one should perish. The fact is God does not always have His way. His will is not always done. If it were, why then does Jesus admonish us to pray that it would be done in the Lord's prayer?
It is not God's will that people are destroyed by typhoons, hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, and other disasters. It is not God's will that people are sick and dying of disease such as aids and TB and heart disease and obesity and diabetes. But people do die, and they do suffer, and they are sick. God's will is for all to be saved, yes, but the sad truth is not all will be.
The fact is God does not always have His way. His will is not always done.
Then He is not God, pure and simple.
Quote:
Isaiah 46:10
10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brakelite There is no inconsistency when it comes to the will of God desiring that no-one should perish. The fact is God does not always have His way. His will is not always done. If it were, why then does Jesus admonish us to pray that it would be done in the Lord's prayer?
It is not God's will that people are destroyed by typhoons, hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, and other disasters. It is not God's will that people are sick and dying of disease such as aids and TB and heart disease and obesity and diabetes. But people do die, and they do suffer, and they are sick. God's will is for all to be saved, yes, but the sad truth is not all will be.
You are wrong there...
No,You are right with the above reasoning.
If a man follows his own will he will reap the consequences, If a man follows God he fairs much better .
We do have a responsibility to what we do and if the will of God is completely ignored it can be devastating . Satan is working overtime to kill , steal and destroy. If one does not have Jesus or the armor of the Lord, which is the word,or the shield of salvation they are opened to all kind of evil.
Being born again and having the Holy Spirit to teach us, and having a saviour who died for our sins and is an advocate for us, and direct us and lead us with his word we are in much better hands that the ones without a saviour.. they are defenseless and fall constantly into the snares of bad judgement. How much better to know the wisdom of the Lord .
In the last days many will be presecuted for believing in Jesus or living a Christ like life.
Jesus was persecuted and his followers were told they too will be presecuted . It is not always perfect here for Christians but God helps us in all of the difficult times having faith which brings us above the circumstances into the realm of love and peace.
So are you saying that it is God's will that men and women and children die of disease, violence, and disaster?
Yes. It most certainly is His will and desire for whatever reason. It's all part of God's original plan and we already know that suffering is part of that plan. He may not "enjoy" seeing these things come to pass but it is all predicted and prophesied in the Bible, you know that.
If it were not God's will, then He could most certainly stop all of it. And He will. But you know as well as I do that there are many, many things that are prophesied that still need to be fulfilled. How can you say that it's NOT God's will? He is a God of Love, but He also is not a liar and He does not change. So saying it is God's will is not a bad thing, it's just the truth. These things all must come to pass before we get to the good stuff.
Yes. It most certainly is His will and desire for whatever reason. It's all part of God's original plan and we already know that suffering is part of that plan. He may not "enjoy" seeing these things come to pass but it is all predicted and prophesied in the Bible, you know that.
If it were not God's will, then He could most certainly stop all of it. And He will. But you know as well as I do that there are many, many things that are prophesied that still need to be fulfilled. How can you say that it's NOT God's will? He is a God of Love, but He also is not a liar and He does not change. So saying it is God's will is not a bad thing, it's just the truth. These things all must come to pass before we get to the good stuff.
I agree Ilene
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Rom 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Yes. It most certainly is His will and desire for whatever reason. It's all part of God's original plan and we already know that suffering is part of that plan. He may not "enjoy" seeing these things come to pass but it is all predicted and prophesied in the Bible, you know that.
If it were not God's will, then He could most certainly stop all of it. And He will. But you know as well as I do that there are many, many things that are prophesied that still need to be fulfilled. How can you say that it's NOT God's will? He is a God of Love, but He also is not a liar and He does not change. So saying it is God's will is not a bad thing, it's just the truth. These things all must come to pass before we get to the good stuff.
Good grief! With views like that coming from a professed Christian, that God wills people to suffer, little wonder there are so many atheists about. If God was truly like that, I wouldn't believe in Him, trust Him, or worship Him either.
You have a very strange understanding on the meaning and nature of the love and character of God.
Jesus came to reveal that character. Tell me. Was it Jesus will to let people suffer and die of disease? Was it Jesus will to allow men and women to be in pain, continue in their blindness and lameness and deafness? Or did He heal everyone wherever He went? Name one person He refused to offer help to.
I repeat, God does not always have His way. He always, and again I repeat always, allows for the freedom and liberty for man to choose his own destiny. God is willing that none should perish, but many will perish because of they choose not to believe and they choose to cherish, teach, approve of and practise all manner of iniquity and sin, and take pleasure in doing so. Heaven to them; the company of holy angels and the redeemed would be to them torture. God will not, He cannot allow any such unrepentant unholy unconverted ones into heaven for they would quickly endanger the eternal security and bliss that heaven offers.
Mt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Acts 7:51 ¶ Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.
Re 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Re 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
God may be willing to do something, but that does not always equate with what He shall do.
Last edited by brakelite; 05-26-2011 at 03:37 PM..
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