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Migol, I realize you're conversing with a lot of people on this thread, and if me jumping in is just going to confuse things for you, feel free to ignore. But I think I might be able to help with a couple of things ...
[ETA: I see Mystic was posting at the same time I was. I maybe should've not butted in, but I'll still leave my post on the off chance it may be helpful.]
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Originally Posted by migol84
I know I'm young but I'm not dumb. How do you get that I'm implying that the heart referenced in Romans is the one pumping blood in our bodies?
Maybe I should've put the word "mouth" in bold so that you can see what I was addressing. You said that it was not some "intellectual pronouncement" to believe in Christ. Now maybe you're not choosing your words right, but apparently Paul thinks there is at least some pronouncement if not an intellectual one.
I wouldn't see the word "mouth" in this passage literally or even as a metaphor for vocallizing a pronouncement of intellectual assent. What would that mean for people who were mute, or for people who were not mentally able to intellectually understand the concepts? Rather, I could see it like this... The "mouth" is metaphorical for an outward expression of what is believed on in the "heart". The "mouth" is the fruit produced. Does that make more sense?
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You say that we are ALL (world included) in Christ because His Holy Spirit is within our conscious. Where do you get that? Where in the Scriptures is that even found?
I made reference to Paul in Romans to say that there is indeed a literal and physical pronouncement that one must make in order to be saved. They must confess with their mouths if they are to be found in Christ. Just like you said, our "mouth" is the only way to express and know what is in our "conscious" which I agree. But this has to occur in this present life. Why or how could you disagree with this?
How does that jive with this?
Acts 2:38“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
But Peter, I thought the Holy Spirit was already in our collective human consciousness? How then can we receive what we already have? And why must one come to repentance to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit if it is indeed already in the collective human consciousness?
You can have a gift in your possession and never use it, right? Or, another way to look at it would be that perhaps tired old analogy of someone putting money into your bank account. If you don't know it's in there, you won't access it ... but once you're aware of it's presence it becomes available to you.
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1. I am not saying that Christ died for ONLY those who believe in him.
2. I agree that it is our conscience that let's us know when we are following Christ's command.
3. I never said it was a magic treatment.
What I am saying is simply that we understand all the things that God offers us when we come to believe, accept and act upon Christ's message. It is a process that one has to make, yes. But there's a point that the person comes to repentance and admits who its Creator and Savior is. There's no way around that.
I don't think you're understanding that the entire world today are living in darkness and Christ is here to save them from that darkness. In order for one to leave from that darkness they must come to the light. They are not in the light. Everything you say makes it sound as ALL are in the light. This is not so.
There are the passages, however, that speak of the fact that the light has come to ALL people. What Mystic is saying, I believe, is that the Light is IN each of us, but we need to be made aware of it. Even then we can be in denial about it and ignore it because the Light is scary for us, as John essentially says. But the Light is still there, it doesn't go away.
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Either that, or we're just not understanding each other, both you and I.
Speaking from personal experience, it can take a lot of effort to understand Mystic. He's intellectually way beyond me, and he explains things in ways I'd never been exposed to before. I found, however, that the more time and effort I expended in making the attempt to understand him (and that honestly meant a LOT of outside studying on my part), the clearer his posts became and the more my thinking expanded. That's just been my experience. Ymmv.
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What's the difference between "believe IN" vs "believe ON"?
But other then that yes I agree that our beliefs are reflected in our daily "fruits" rather than what we profess to believe.
It's sort of like what Jesus said to the Pharisees about washing the outside of a cup, but not the inside. Believing IN simply means mental assent to something. But not everything we give mental assent to is really accepted by us deep down. It CAN result in only the washing of the outside of the cup but no real change on the inside. Believing ON may include mental assent but, more importantly, it is something we truly accept and trust deep within... It's what transforms us from the inside out.
Migol, I realize you're conversing with a lot of people on this thread, and if me jumping in is just going to confuse things for you, feel free to ignore. But I think I might be able to help with a couple of things ...
[ETA: I see Mystic was posting at the same time I was. I maybe should've not butted in, but I'll still leave my post on the off chance it may be helpful.]
I wouldn't see the word "mouth" in this passage literally or even as a metaphor for vocallizing a pronouncement of intellectual assent. What would that mean for people who were mute, or for people who were not mentally able to intellectually understand the concepts? Rather, I could see it like this... The "mouth" is metaphorical for an outward expression of what is believed on in the "heart". The "mouth" is the fruit produced. Does that make more sense?
You can have a gift in your possession and never use it, right? Or, another way to look at it would be that perhaps tired old analogy of someone putting money into your bank account. If you don't know it's in there, you won't access it ... but once you're aware of it's presence it becomes available to you.
There are the passages, however, that speak of the fact that the light has come to ALL people. What Mystic is saying, I believe, is that the Light is IN each of us, but we need to be made aware of it. Even then we can be in denial about it and ignore it because the Light is scary for us, as John essentially says. But the Light is still there, it doesn't go away.
Speaking from personal experience, it can take a lot of effort to understand Mystic. He's intellectually way beyond me, and he explains things in ways I'd never been exposed to before. I found, however, that the more time and effort I expended in making the attempt to understand him (and that honestly meant a LOT of outside studying on my part), the clearer his posts became and the more my thinking expanded. That's just been my experience. Ymmv.
It's sort of like what Jesus said to the Pharisees about washing the outside of a cup, but not the inside. Believing IN simply means mental assent to something. But not everything we give mental assent to is really accepted by us deep down. It CAN result in only the washing of the outside of the cup but no real change on the inside. Believing ON may include mental assent but, more importantly, it is something we truly accept and trust deep within... It's what transforms us from the inside out.
This is a wonderful and encouraging post, Pleroo. Your efforts to understand are bearing wonderful "fruit." I still cannot rep you.Thank you for trying, sister.
In Christ's love,
Mystic
Oh! Oh! Let me try to ask a fair question! Let me try!
Question: Do you believe that all will eventually be saved at some point in their physical or spiritual existence By accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior?
If you are up for it, i have a few follow up questions for my own understanding:
If yes (on the above answer): of those people that are saved eventually, do you believe that those who do not accept Jesus in their earthly lifetime will "inherit the Kingdom of God" without being purified by God's "fiery" Justice?
Last Question: Of those who do not accept Jesus in their Earthly lifetime, are they capable of actually accepting Christ without Being purified by God's Justice?
Hey Jrhockney How ya doing? I will answer your questions.
Number 1. Yes I believe all will eventually be saved and they will all accept Jesus as Lord.
Number 2. No those who do not judge themselves and repent and be cleansed ( the ones that do are the elect of Jesus) will not inherit the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is the time Jesus rules with his elect and they will judge the rest of mankind and the angels themselves, and all men and angels will repent and be reconciled unto God and then Jesus will turn all over to the Father who will be all in all.
Number 3. Of course they are not capable of accepting Christ without God's grace, none of us are. We all will be judged and we all will repent and we all will be cleansed, just at different times, according to God's time table not ours.
God the Father is a loving Father and that means that he will chastise his children when they need it to make them repent and choose to follow the Father and be like him. Like any loving parent God will never deny or give up on his children, even when they curse him. He will keep his covenant and save all who are lost, and we all are lost at one time or another.
God never fails and he desires that all men be saved and come to repentance and that none are lost. So that is what will end up happening.
Hades - A mythical place for the dead - just and unjust
Gehenna - Metaphor used to denote the fiery destruction of the wars from 66 - 70 AD
Lake of Fire - Same as Gehenna
Sheol - the ground underneath your feet where the dead bodies lay.
No "Hell" in the Bible.
These are anti-Christian statements. You've been fooled.
(sadly Finn seems to have run away from my question)
It is rude to throw people's names around behind their backs. I do not lurk here 24/7.
Yes, I believe what John 3:16 says that if you believe in Christ, you will have everlasting life. Miraculously when you become a believer, or are 'born again', your desire to live in willful sin DIES. Yes, a believer is "dead to sin", and that means they do not desire it to live such lifestyle any more. Satan tells believers "go ahead and sin, you are already saved", but they will say "I don't want to". If you want to live in willful sin, then it is time to examine your faith, because it may well be that you were not saved after all.
The difference is that UR will give the UNBELIEVER the impression that they can continue living in sin, and still go to heaven, and that is a very dangerous teaching.
The difference is that UR will give the UNBELIEVER the impression that they can continue living in sin, and still go to heaven, and that is a very dangerous teaching.
Nope. there is no substantiation that there is any significant appearance of that assertion. In fact I see Christians in greater numbers not living any different so long as they think they have fire insurance.
I find it quite ironic that you critisize UR people for saying they have Gods love while not exhibiting it, I have not found one post of yours loving at all, you're just another pretender.
Last edited by Phazelwood; 06-16-2011 at 10:28 AM..
Thanks for answering my questions honestly and directly. I'm still trying to figure out some the structure of this model and I have two more follow up questions if you're up for them as well (other UR believers can answer to if they want):
1. Would you say peoples options for accepting Christ change at all once their dead?
I'm curious about this one because of how the bible uses the word forms of aion to describe the length of time people will be "corrected" and it seems that if they found out in the afterlife that Jesus is the savior, why they would not just accept him right away? If they could do that, whats the urgency of accepting him on while they're alive? I suppose the command to make disciples of nations might count, but I'd like your perspective...ok I guess thats a few questions here, but they are only to cover the bases of the main question
2. Are Christians spared God's Correction in any particular way or is it just different from the correction of unbelievers if they believe while they are still alive?
Hey Jrhockney, Hope I'm not steeping on logoman's toes by trying to answer these questions also.
Number 1. The options for everyone accepting Christ are the same now or later it does not matter, there are no options, it is all of God. God draws(drags) us to the cross and Jesus and none can come to him if the Father does not draw(drag) him. Jesus said that if he be lifted up all men will be drawn(dragged ) to him.
Number 2. God's correction is that we reap what we sow so all judgement are made to fit the person, it is personal and meaningful to that person and it will make him repent and become a new creature.
This is a wonderful and encouraging post, Pleroo. Your efforts to understand are bearing wonderful "fruit." I still cannot rep you.Thank you for trying, sister.
In Christ's love,
Mystic
Well, I still have issues with the "mental assent" part , but I genuinely meant what I said about having my thinking expanded by your posts Mystic. It's been quite freeing. So, I thank you.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
While alive we have the power of repentance through Christ (whether we know it is through Him or not). When we have true remorse and remember (relive) our unloving acts (sins) we change them within our Soul (eternal cumulative consciousness) under the grace of Christ's love for us. (The out-of-tune thoughts and feeling are "attuned" to some harmonic of Christ's love.) But if we wait till death . . . we are stuck with the entire task of "retuning" by actually "reliving" them through God's refining fire shining the glare of complete truth on them. We will have to experience all the harmful effects on ALL those who were affected by them . . . until our soul has all been attuned properly and all the dross removed from it. This can take quite some time and will not be very pleasant . . . but it will also not be eternal and unending.
Glad you posted this. I'd had a different impression before of your view of the "afterlife" . Interesting thoughts. I do think what you describe as happening in the afterlife could easily fit into the moments before death (as described by those who've experienced NDEs). After that? Well, I'm not convinced of a conscious afterlife, but that's just me.
These are anti-Christian statements. You've been fooled.
Whut??? Anti-Christian statements? What Sciotamicks said is the truth, except I don't agree with the Preterist belief that everything took place in 70 AD, but that does not make him anti-Christian.
What is it going to take to make people realize that "hell" has been horribly mistranslated? It's right there in front of you, all you have to do is be able to read and comprehend.
The Paris analogy doesn't work because Paris is a finite place, while Christ is... infinite, and the very image of God, who is infinite and all-powerful.
In Christ, all will be made alive.
A little English lesson on the word "all"
We have to understand what these English words mean. What does "all" mean? It means each and everyone. However very often when we use the word "all" in common everyday language, we must limit the word to some smaller group, because context demands it and it wouldn't make sense any other way. But this doesn't apply when dealing with an infinite God. It is important to note that we can't arbitrarily limit the word "all", but only when context demands it. Otherwise the word ceases to lose all meaning.
I am going to invite all my friends to my house this weekend.
Do I really literally mean "all" - each and everyone of my friends, including my friends who live half way across the country that I knew in grade school? Does it include my friends on this internet forum? No, context probably demands that I'm only talking about my friends in the immediate area.
God sees all people.
Now we can see that this "all" literally means each and every person that has ever existed. There is no reason to limit the "all".
In Paris, all speak French.
This is not even completely accurate, because certainly there are people in Paris who can't speak French. Paris is not an infinite controlling force that causes people to speak French.
In Christ, all will be made alive.
This literally means: through Christ, each and every person who has ever existed will be made alive. Christ certainly has the ability and power to cause all people to be made alive, therefore that is the only meaning we can take from this statement. We cannot artificially limit "all" because there is no reason to.
I'm sorry sir. You're not seeing it. The people who will be made alive are made alive "In Christ." And this is saying that all people who come through Christ will be made alive.
The Paris analogy still works here, assuming that french is the only language that will be spoken in Paris. In Paris, all shall speak french bares the same meaning as "In Christ, all shall be made alive."
Truth is the way that you are rationalizing things do not make any sense. In fact, your sentence of "I am going to invite my friends this weekend" has nothing in similarity. However, if you were to say, "In my party, ALL will have fun," is more parallel to what we are discussing. That means that any and everyone, the actual meaning of "ALL", within its context will actually have fun. The same goes with the said scripture in reference, "In Christ, all shall be made alive." YES ALL...... but they have to go through Christ, they have to be "IN CHRIST." Is that scripture saying that ALL will come to Christ? Is it saying that ALL will come to Christ after death? No, it's simply saying that "in Christ, all will be made alive." That's why Paul says, in Galations, "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature." What the person has to do is come to Christ before his life is over. You can't just put your own interpretation on it. Just use it as it is.
You say that This literally means: [i]through Christ, each and every person who has ever existed will be made alive. Each and every person? How does each and every person come through Christ in the first place? When 1 Cor. 15:22 says, "in Christ, all will be made alive" when do they exactly go in Christ? When does that happen? I have an idea, although I don't think you'd agree with me.
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Anti-Christian statements? What Sciotamicks said is the truth, except I don't agree with the Preterist belief that everything took place in 70 AD, but that does not make him anti-Christian.
