OK, Let's Begin Again With Hell (Gospel, belief, praying, priests)

[Taratova]

Originally Posted by Ilene Wright

I understand your fundamentalist leanings and your belief. But that doesn't make you the authority on the interpretation of certain scriptures. "Hell" is mistranslated beyond all comprehension in the Bible and that's where one needs to start when questioning the eternal torment belief.

Yes Satan gives confusion and He's very real and very busy but he does not win.....God does. No one can tell me that most of humanity is going to be spending an eternity with Satan.....how is that God winning? That sounds as though Satan wins to me. It's really quite simple when you think about it and study out the mistranslation of certain words and scriptures. God loves us all and He will find a way to convert all of us.

God found the way to convert us all. To repent of sins and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. It was finished on the Cross.

God is a holy God.

By your account Jesus has no need to mention hell at all if God will convert us all without our input of choosing who we follow.

It is either God and his word or some interpretation that feels good to all.

God did not say I will find a way to save everyone.

God said broad is the path that leads to destruction and narrow the way that leads to eternal life.

I did not write that ,God did.

[sciotamicks]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

Is Jesus cursing when says to those on his left ..."go to hell" Matthew 25:41

or

is Jesus not all powerful to send those on his left to hell Matthew 25:41

Let me ask you this twin spin...is Jesus talking to anyone other than a covenant people? Or is He directly talking to a pagan, non-Jew, in disbelief?

Secondly, is Matt 25:32 denoting an heavenly, incorporeal state when He says...nations...or are there nations in Hell or Heaven? Last I checked there wasn't.

Thirdly, if the above is incorrect, and He is speaking allegorically and apocalyptically about a real life situation, could not verse 41's everlasting fire, being that the previous chapter He confirmed the earthly end to "not one stone" referring to the temple's demise, that this fire indeed is not incorporeal, but that of an earthly one?

Fourthly, the Greek term aggelos does not always refer to such heavenly spirits. The meaning of the term must be determined by the context. In the following passages the Greek word aggelos is translated by the word messenger: Matthew 11:10; Luke 7:24, 27; 9:52; Mark 1:2; James 2:25. John the Baptist is called an aggelos. The disciples of John the Baptist were also described as angels. And this was true in regard to the disciples of Christ. In James 2:25 the messengers sent to Rahab were called 'angels.' In Matthew 25:41 the term “angels” here, in the Greek, carries the inference that this was a reference to the devil’s servants - rather than the “fallen angels” or demons of the spirit realm. These “servants” were none other than the rebel Jews of the First Century, when the context of Old Covenant judgment in Matt 24 and 25 is given its due weight. Note that their “end” is described as EVERLASTING fire. Indeed their end has been everlasting, sons of the devil/adversary.

The problem here is that we are interpreting ancient allegory and apocalyptic passages as incorporeal places, when THEY ARE NOT. They are poetic descriptions of REAL LIFE EVENTS.

[Ilene Wright]

[quote=Taratova;19326049]

God found the way to convert us all. To repent of sins and accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. It was finished on the Cross.

Yes He did find a way to convert us all, and that was/is Jesus Christ. I agree with everything you said here.

God is a holy God.

Yes He is.

By your account Jesus has no need to mention hell at all if God will convert us all without our input of choosing who we follow.

No by the Bible's account Jesus came to save ALL. Do I need to quote scripture? If someone actually chooses to follow Satan after meeting God then they'll probably get what they want. But who in their right mind is going to do that? They will willingly take their punishment just to be in God's presence. Wouldn't you?

It is either God and his word or some interpretation that feels good to all.

I base everything I say on God and His word. It's all in there.

God did not say I will find a way to save everyone.

Yes He did say that.
1 Timothy 2:4 (King James Version)


4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God said broad is the path that leads to destruction and narrow the way that leads to eternal life.

Yes, it does say that. But nowhere does it say that it's eternal destruction.

I did not write that ,God did.

I didn't write any of this stuff either, God did.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

Let me ask you this twin spin...is Jesus talking to anyone other than a covenant people? Or is He directly talking to a pagan, non-Jew, in disbelief?

Secondly, is Matt 25:32 denoting an heavenly, incorporeal state when He says...nations...or are there nations in Hell or Heaven? Last I checked there wasn't.

Thirdly, if the above is incorrect, and He is speaking allegorically and apocalyptically about a real life situation, could not verse 41's everlasting fire, being that the previous chapter He confirmed the earthly end to "not one stone" referring to the temple's demise, that this fire indeed is not incorporeal, but that of an earthly one?

Fourthly, the Greek term aggelos does not always refer to such heavenly spirits. The meaning of the term must be determined by the context. In the following passages the Greek word aggelos is translated by the word messenger: Matthew 11:10; Luke 7:24, 27; 9:52; Mark 1:2; James 2:25. John the Baptist is called an aggelos. The disciples of John the Baptist were also described as angels. And this was true in regard to the disciples of Christ. In James 2:25 the messengers sent to Rahab were called 'angels.' In Matthew 25:41 the term “angels” here, in the Greek, carries the inference that this was a reference to the devil’s servants - rather than the “fallen angels” or demons of the spirit realm. These “servants” were none other than the rebel Jews of the First Century, when the context of Old Covenant judgment in Matt 24 and 25 is given its due weight. Note that their “end” is described as EVERLASTING fire. Indeed their end has been everlasting, sons of the devil/adversary.

The problem here is that we are interpreting ancient allegory and apocalyptic passages as incorporeal places, when THEY ARE NOT. They are poetic descriptions of REAL LIFE EVENTS.

Then Jesus is cursing the people on his left or hallucinating that they are there.

About the nation thing .... check again in Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9, Revelation 11:9,

[Taratova]

Ilene, I don't know quite what you believe but it doesn 't match up with God.. 1 Timothy 2:4 Who would have all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. That is God's will for all of us because he loves us, but we do know that God's will is not done.

Even Jesus mourned over Jerusalem .

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which kill the prophets, and stone them that are sent to you; how often would I have gathered your children together, as a hen does gather her brood under her wings, and you would not!

Many rejected Christ in the flesh , they did not do the will of God. Not everyone gets into the kingdom of heaven.

I don't know how you became convinced of this , the bible is very clear that it is up to the will of the individual to choose Christ or not.

Do not be decieved , for many will turn to a message that does not line up with the word of God.

[Mikelee81]

1. Deuteronomy 32:22
For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
Deuteronomy 32:21-23 (in Context) Deuteronomy 32 (Whole Chapter)
2. 2 Samuel 22:6
The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;
2 Samuel 22:5-7 (in Context) 2 Samuel 22 (Whole Chapter)
3. Job 11:8
It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?
Job 11:7-9 (in Context) Job 11 (Whole Chapter)
4. Job 26:6
Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.
Job 26:5-7 (in Context) Job 26 (Whole Chapter)
5. Psalm 9:17
The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.
Psalm 9:16-18 (in Context) Psalm 9 (Whole Chapter)
6. Psalm 16:10
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Psalm 16:9-11 (in Context) Psalm 16 (Whole Chapter)
7. Psalm 18:5
The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.
Psalm 18:4-6 (in Context) Psalm 18 (Whole Chapter)
8. Psalm 55:15
Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.
Psalm 55:14-16 (in Context) Psalm 55 (Whole Chapter)
9. Psalm 86:13
For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.
Psalm 86:12-14 (in Context) Psalm 86 (Whole Chapter)
10. Psalm 116:3
The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.
Psalm 116:2-4 (in Context) Psalm 116 (Whole Chapter)
11. Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Psalm 139:7-9 (in Context) Psalm 139 (Whole Chapter)
12. Proverbs 5:5
Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.
Proverbs 5:4-6 (in Context) Proverbs 5 (Whole Chapter)
13. Proverbs 7:27
Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.
Proverbs 7:26-27 (in Context) Proverbs 7 (Whole Chapter)
14. Proverbs 9:18
But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.
Proverbs 9:17-18 (in Context) Proverbs 9 (Whole Chapter)
15. Proverbs 15:11
Hell and destruction are before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?
Proverbs 15:10-12 (in Context) Proverbs 15 (Whole Chapter)
16. Proverbs 15:24
The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
Proverbs 15:23-25 (in Context) Proverbs 15 (Whole Chapter)
17. Proverbs 23:14
Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Proverbs 23:13-15 (in Context) Proverbs 23 (Whole Chapter)
18. Proverbs 27:20
Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.
Proverbs 27:19-21 (in Context) Proverbs 27 (Whole Chapter)
19. Isaiah 5:14
Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.
Isaiah 5:13-15 (in Context) Isaiah 5 (Whole Chapter)
20. Isaiah 14:9
Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
Isaiah 14:8-10 (in Context) Isaiah 14 (Whole Chapter)
21. Isaiah 14:15
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isaiah 14:14-16 (in Context) Isaiah 14 (Whole Chapter)
22. Isaiah 28:15
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Isaiah 28:14-16 (in Context) Isaiah 28 (Whole Chapter)
23. Isaiah 28:18
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Isaiah 28:17-19 (in Context) Isaiah 28 (Whole Chapter)
24. Isaiah 57:9
And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.
Isaiah 57:8-10 (in Context) Isaiah 57 (Whole Chapter)
25. Ezekiel 31:16
I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.
Ezekiel 31:15-17 (in Context) Ezekiel 31 (Whole Chapter)


26. Ezekiel 31:17
They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.
Ezekiel 31:16-18 (in Context) Ezekiel 31 (Whole Chapter)
27. Ezekiel 32:21
The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
Ezekiel 32:20-22 (in Context) Ezekiel 32 (Whole Chapter)
28. Ezekiel 32:27
And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.
Ezekiel 32:26-28 (in Context) Ezekiel 32 (Whole Chapter)
29. Amos 9:2
Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:
Amos 9:1-3 (in Context) Amos 9 (Whole Chapter)
30. Jonah 2:2
And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
Jonah 2:1-3 (in Context) Jonah 2 (Whole Chapter)
31. Habakkuk 2:5
Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:
Habakkuk 2:4-6 (in Context) Habakkuk 2 (Whole Chapter)
32. Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 5:21-23 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)
33. Matthew 5:29
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matthew 5:28-30 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)
34. Matthew 5:30
And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matthew 5:29-31 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)
35. Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:27-29 (in Context) Matthew 10 (Whole Chapter)
36. Matthew 11:23
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Matthew 11:22-24 (in Context) Matthew 11 (Whole Chapter)
37. Matthew 16:18
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 16:17-19 (in Context) Matthew 16 (Whole Chapter)
38. Matthew 18:9
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Matthew 18:8-10 (in Context) Matthew 18 (Whole Chapter)
39. Matthew 23:15
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Matthew 23:14-16 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
40. Matthew 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Matthew 23:32-34 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
41. Mark 9:43
And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:42-44 (in Context) Mark 9 (Whole Chapter)
42. Mark 9:45
And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:44-46 (in Context) Mark 9 (Whole Chapter)
43. Mark 9:47
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mark 9:46-48 (in Context) Mark 9 (Whole Chapter)
44. Luke 10:15
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
Luke 10:14-16 (in Context) Luke 10 (Whole Chapter)
45. Luke 12:5
But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Luke 12:4-6 (in Context) Luke 12 (Whole Chapter)
46. Luke 16:23
And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:22-24 (in Context) Luke 16 (Whole Chapter)
47. Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:26-28 (in Context) Acts 2 (Whole Chapter)
48. Acts 2:31
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Acts 2:30-32 (in Context) Acts 2 (Whole Chapter)
49. James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.
James 3:5-7 (in Context) James 3 (Whole Chapter)
50. 2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2 Peter 2:3-5 (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (Whole Chapter)
51. Revelation 1:18
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Revelation 1:17-19 (in Context) Revelation 1 (Whole Chapter)
52. Revelation 6:8
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Revelation 6:7-9 (in Context) Revelation 6 (Whole Chapter)
53. Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:12-14 (in Context) Revelation 20 (Whole Chapter)
54. Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:13-15 (in Context) Revelation 20 (Whole Chapter)

BibleGateway.com - Keyword*Search: Hell

"Hell" alone is mentioned 54 times. It's also called Gehenna, Sheol, and Lake of Fire. It's in the bible, eternal, and real. Biblegateway has a word search.

[Ilene Wright]

Originally Posted by Taratova

Ilene, I don't know quite what you believe but it doesn 't match up with God.. 1 Timothy 2:4 Who would have all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. That is God's will for all of us because he loves us, but we do know that God's will is not done.

Even Jesus mourned over Jerusalem .

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which kill the prophets, and stone them that are sent to you; how often would I have gathered your children together, as a hen does gather her brood under her wings, and you would not!

Many rejected Christ in the flesh , they did not do the will of God. Not everyone gets into the kingdom of heaven.

I don't know how you became convinced of this , the bible is very clear that it is up to the will of the individual to choose Christ or not.

Do not be decieved , for many will turn to a message that does not line up with the word of God.

God's will is ALWAYS done, and he desires and wills ALL to be saved. How in the world can you say that God's will is not done? We know that Israel is saved, the Bible says so. Not everyone gets in the kingdom of heaven TO BEGIN WITH, only the saved. Yes many have and will reject Christ, but that is a temporary situation. The Bible is VERY CLEAR that it is NOT up to the individual to choose, God does the choosing.

I'm not deceived my friend, I have finally found the truth. Investigate it for yourself.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by Taratova

Ilene, I don't know quite what you believe but it doesn 't match up with God.. 1 Timothy 2:4 Who would have all men saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. That is God's will for all of us because he loves us, but we do know that God's will is not done.

I always think that it is funny, and a little sad, when i hear Christians say that "Gods will is not done".

What is the point of praying that Gods will be done if you don't believe that it will ever be done in the first place?

"Ye of little faith", "the people of God come to destruction because of a lack of understanding".

Gods will is done, and he works out all things according to the counsel of his own will ... not according to the counsel of the will of men.

God will have all people to be saved, and he is the savior of all people. He is God, and nothing is impossible for him ... His word will accomplish everything that he sent him into this world to do.

[crisan]

Originally Posted by Taratova

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom. Yet perfect love castes out fear.

There is a heaven and there is a hell, no debate , it is the Word of God.

Okay, so I won't argue if there is an actual hell.

I will argue that on this Earth, fear is necessary, but it should not be fear of God.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by Taratova

I don't know how you became convinced of this , the bible is very clear that it is up to the will of the individual to choose Christ or not.

Do not be decieved , for many will turn to a message that does not line up with the word of God.

The bible is very clear of no such thing ... What the bible is clear about is the fact that God is the one who gives us repentance and faith so that we come to believe in Christ. We do not choose him, he chooses us ... He pours his spirit out on us and his spirit works within us to produce the fruits of the spirit so that we desire and do the things that please him.

It has nothing to do with the natural volition of humans ... It has everything to do with the timing of Gods plan to reconcile all things to himself in Christ. Paul is more than clear about predestination and that it is God who hardens peoples hearts and who gives us repentance and faith. Christ is the great physician, and he will heal the entire creation of sin and death, and God will one day be all and in all ... No one will remain separated from him for ever, because he devises the means so that all those who are outcast will not remain banished from him for ever(2 Samuel 14:14).

Hell is a pagan myth interpolated into the scriptures by the roman catholic church through subtle translation errors throughout the texts of both the old and new testaments. This began when Jerome translated the letters of the new testament from Greek into latin, and the error grew greater as the letters where much later translated into old English.

The original meaning of the word hell in the old English and germanic is "to cover"(as in hel-met, to cover the head) and refers to the grave where all people go according to ancient Nordic Mythology, though the translators of the KJV misused the word in order to interpolate the false doctrine of eternal torture even further into the scriptures.