Mormonism: More than one God, and other Mormon beliefs. True or False? (Latter Day Saints, prayers)
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I'm sorry, but Smith definitely separates God the Father from Jesus Christ in the sentence bolded above and boldly says that the Father dwelt here on earth THE SAME AS JESUS CHRIST and was once a man like us.
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Originally Posted by Katzpur
Minor correction here. He says "on an earth," not "on earth." If God did experience mortality, it would have been in a completely different realm than we now live in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood
Katzpur, let me see if I can explain something to see if I may understand the issue of God once a man in the multi-verse context.
...
In the multi-verse context, it would seem to me that the established assumtion would be that God is a deity, always has been a diety and always will be just as God is depicted in traditional Christianity.
The difference in the multi-verse context is that God in the realm of our earth put himself here as a man and was one of us.
So from our perspective God was one of us, but at the same time he was the diety over all existance and always has been.
Have I got that correct?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
You are definitely right about that. That's why when statements of this sort are taken out of context, they are misunderstood by people coming from a different theological background.
That is absolutely correct.
If I'm understanding you correctly, then yes.
ok I incorrectly stated that Mormon thought has it that our FATHER was HERE ON EARTH as a man. Katzpur corrected me and said it was not HERE but another earth/planet on which our God, our creator, lived as a man.
Phazelwood restated his belief that Katzpur was saying God (the Father, our creator,before Christ lived here) put himself "in the realm of our earth" and Katzpur responded that he was correct. So which is it? Was God on this earth or another earth? As I'm understanding it, in Mormon thought, OUR God was once NOT God, a creator, but first had to pass through testing and progression to become a God. Therefore He had a creator. Therefore there is someone prior to Him. AFTER he progressed to Godhood, THEN he created THIS UNIVERSE in which WE live and for all intents and purposes, HE is the only God we have any allegiance to for we are HIS creation. BUT there are other universes out there which He did not create and which existed prior to THIS universe and is ruled by a different GOD who may also have been a man and promoted to Godhead status on a different planet from the one OUR God did? Is this basically what you said, Katzpur?
You have every right to believe this. But if this is what you believe, it does differ from who I believe the GOD I worship is. I believe you mentioned that you think God the father is a person of flesh and bone, which I totally do NOT believe. Jesus, yes, he has flesh and bone, of a much superior substance to that we possess at this time. But our scriptures say that God the Father is Spirit, that He alone is God and there is noone before Him or after Him. That would be sort of a lie in your multi-verse theoloty. He says that all things that are and will ever be were made by Him THROUGH Jesus Christ, but no matter whether we ever see them or not, if there are other universes made by some other God and if someone made Him wouldn't you think He would want to direct some worship toward HIS creator?
I do believe that we will become something much higher than we are now. Whether it is an ETERNAL progression, I do not know, but if it is, then we can't be like God for He says He CHANGES NOT. He is the same yesterday, today and tommorow. That too would sort of be a lie. I suppose you could comfort yourself, saying that, well SINCE OUR BEGINNING, he has not changed. But IF I DID become one who could create a universe,I can't imagine telling my creation to ONLY worship me if I had a creator.
See Paul, I do not intend to persecute Katzpur or the Mormon faith. Or Buddhists or Hindus or anyone. But I do believe that they have a much different view of God the father. And what about Jesus? If he is OUR God's son, then I suppose other universes never needed Him? Or did every universe have need of a son of God to save them out of their sin and there are as many Christs and even satan's as there are universes? And will those of our race who progress to Godhead need to make a Jesus Christ? (I don't imagine I will ever come to that point nor do I, at this time, have that sort of ambition). Will there be new satans? But that begs the question of if there is a creature of that title or if satan is only our carnal selves (which to be part of the truth but still believe in a creature who has that title also). This is too much for me to imagine. With this multi-universe theory, many more questions arise and I do believe it contradicts what we read in the Bible. But then people have always told me I think too much.
As far as the Bible talking about 'other gods.' I believe we know that it does not mean other 'universe creators' but simply men put in authority for a time or season, or the false gods that many cultures worshipped such as Moloch) and all these 'gods' (such as Moses, pharaoh, satan) are still under His supreme authority. If that is not how someone else sees it, then we believe quite differently.
Anyway, that is my take on the God once being a man theory. I hope I have not totally confused what you tried to depict in your analogy with Laura the cashier/manager theory, but I assume that Laura was NOT the store manager at the same time she was the cashier. From what I see, you do NOT say what phazelwood said about our FATHER being our GOD while at the same time being a man on OUR planet, That would make NO SENSE at all to me. But if I did not understand it correctly, perhaps you could try to explain how OUR FATHER could be our GOD while at the same time following his own progression in another universe.
Or perhaps I did not understand Paul's explanation.
I do find some evidence that we will be much more than we are now, but I find it difficult to believe that we will keep on making universes to rule over, now I do know we are called to rule and reign with CHRIST here until HE/we has/have put all into submission under HIM (GOD THE FATHER) at which time God will be all in all, and perhaps there will be more creations, but I pretty much am confident that even if we have some authority over these new creations, that it will still be UNDER our FATHER. For any power we will have will be HIS, just as Christ said his words and authority all came from HIS FATHER. Well, this is an exhausting subject. It is apparent that none of us knows everything there is to know about God, and it has been interesting and I hope that I have NOT made you feel bad. It is very difficult when someone challenges your beliefs not to feel your whole life and values are ridiculed by others. That is certainly not what I would want to have you feel. You are a precious soul and have much love for God, Jesus, and others, in my opinion. These 'discussions' are good for us to develop our own defense of our faith and for an avenue to express our own thoughts. Thank you, Katzpur, for always being so kind and patient in your dealings with me.
Can you give me one good reason why I would lie to you, Finn? Why would I tell you we believe one thing when we really believe something else? Tell me right now whether you believe what I've said so far in this thread. If you do, I'll continue this conversation. If you think I'm not telling you the truth, say so. If that's the case, though, there is no reason for me to continue posting. It's a waste of my time for me to spend a couple of hours a day answering questions if you think I'm being dishonest.
No, I am not saying you are lying, but it seems like you are not delivering the 100% unfiltered whole truth. But it has been very useful nonetheless and I wish you would not leave, because I have learned new things by reading your comments and comparing them to things I find in the internet.
Did you consider the question about Jesus and Lucifer being brothers?
[quote=urbanlemur;21037928]Well, one thing I learned is that the Jesus of the Book of Mormon is not the same Jesus described in the Bible based on His relationship to Lucifer, His ministry and His 3 days in the Americas, among many others.
You know what is taught regarding that issue.
I was taught that yes, I could become like Him through eternal progression, although I would never reach the point that He is at. End of quote by Urbanlemur
So, if one can never progress to the point our creator exists in, and He had a creator, does He have limits His creator didn't have, and on down the line, those of our race who reach Godhood, their creations could never reach their power? AT some point, the creations would have far less power than the original God, who I guess we never hear from or about? Guess we just shouldn't think or worry about that.
Sorry, couldn't resist pointing that out.
Last edited by ScarletWren; 09-26-2011 at 12:39 PM..
Or perhaps I did not understand Paul's explanation.
My point was that if Jesus can be man and a deity at the same time, what is the difficulty transferring that context over to God?
Christians often imply that Jesus became a man on earth so he could relate to humans. Mormons it appears seems God did that directly rather than through his Son.
In reference to the early church founders saying God was one of us, I am looking at that context.
I have heard Christians say that Jesus became one of us, but that belief doesn't change that the core teaching of Christianity is that Jesus is God. I do not see the Core of LDS teachings indicating that GOD the FATHER is NOT ultimatly the Supreme GOD eternal.
Here we have sermons that most likely are preached to people who have already been instructed that God is GOD THE FATHER Eternal, but that he was a man like us in the same capacity Jesus was.
Perhaps I am wrong, but as I read the whole of LDS teachings, that is the context I see it placed in.
Now if I rely on the websites of the critics and what I was spoon fed in the Christian churches that I used to attend, I would have a different perspective. But I am not relying on their opinions to come to my conclusions.
My point was that if Jesus can be man and a deity at the same time, what is the difficulty transferring that context over to God?
Christians often imply that Jesus became a man on earth so he could relate to humans. Mormons it appears seems God did that directly rather than through his Son.
In reference to the early church founders saying God was one of us, I am looking at that context.
I have heard Christians say that Jesus became one of us, but that belief doesn't change that the core teaching of Christianity is that Jesus is God. I do not see the Core of LDS teachings indicating that GOD the FATHER is NOT ultimatly the Supreme GOD eternal.
Here we have sermons that most likely are preached to people who have already been instructed that God is GOD THE FATHER Eternal, but that he was a man like us in the same capacity Jesus was.
Perhaps I am wrong, but as I read the whole of LDS teachings, that is the context I see it placed in.
Now if I rely on the websites of the critics and what I was spoon fed in the Christian churches that I used to attend, I would have a different perspective. But I am not relying on their opinions to come to my conclusions.
Well you and I, Paul, see totally different conclusions from what Katzpur said. So you think she meant God became a man on a different planet, while at the same time being the supreme deity in heavenly realms but it seems to me she was saying that God wasn't the God of Us at that time, or why was he cashiering to work his way up to be manager? I saw nothing in her multi verse explanation to indicate that He was there to help them out. That isn't the scenario I understand at all. The whole scenario seems to be that Laura had to LEARN the ropes at one point BEFORE she could gain the skills needed to be the manager at another store (another universe) where they never knew her to be a cashier BUT she was a lowly cashier at one point. There was nothing in that scenario to indicate that during her stint as cashier she was manager at the same time. How do you get such a different conclusion?
Anyway, I understand your point about the saving work of Jesus Christ, but again I don't think they have the same understanding of His saving work. I believe she believes that WE ourselves of our own power, must do what is needed to progress, where it is my understanding that God is the one who works within us to make us the Sons (daughters if there is any relevance to that in the next age) He wants us to be. We are HIS workmanship. Is there some participation on our part, absolutely. We are NOT robots, but we do have the capacity to understand and learn from what happens to us and those around us. Getting too far off the subject here. I just think you are so intent on defending the Mormon beliefs here that you did not really look at the cashier/manager scenario. Or if you are correct and the Mormons believe that the God over our universe is the Most High and Only Supreme God, what was He doing on this other planet (NOT ours)? In her scenario I can't understand it any other way than that He was progressing up the ladder. See I don't have an understanding of Christ being here on earth 2000+ years ago for God's learning, but for our benefit and to establish Christ's right to be the ruler at the right Hand of God for as long as it takes Him to subdue all authority to Him and ultimatley under the Father, not for the Son's own glory, but for the Father's. But that's going off on another tangent. Guess we just will have to agree to disagree in this matter.
Peace and many blessings from the spiritual realm.
They are indeed. Every mormon I have known, and I have known quite a few, have been good and honest people. They are well trained in their teachings, and they are well behaved, respectful, and live a diciplined life.
There are no issues in getting along with them.
Sure, just as long as the topic of faith/religion *never* comes up in conversation. But that is extremely unlikely.
I don't know for sure, but I base mine off of Katzpurs responce to my specific questions.
Quote:
Anyway, I understand your point about the saving work of Jesus Christ, but again I don't think they have the same understanding of His saving work.
My argument is not about that, these same questions exist within Christianity, it is often asserted that how someone sees Jesus does not save them.
My argument is concerning the core of LDS belief, their own website and every Mormon I have ever encountered including those that have visited my house does not deny that the LDS teaches about the same Jesus as is in the Holy Bible.
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I believe she believes that WE ourselves of our own power, must do what is needed to progress, where it is my understanding that God is the one who works within us to make us the Sons (daughters if there is any relevance to that in the next age) He wants us to be. We are HIS workmanship. Is there some participation on our part, absolutely.
Well, when you say our participation is required, required to do what? Progress?
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Guess we just will have to agree to disagree in this matter.
If you do not wish to talk about it any further, no harm done.
I don't know for sure, but I base mine off of Katzpurs responce to my specific questions.
My argument is not about that, these same questions exist within Christianity, it is often asserted that how someone sees Jesus does not save them.
My argument is concerning the core of LDS belief, their own website and every Mormon I have ever encountered including those that have visited my house does not deny that the LDS teaches about the same Jesus as is in the Holy Bible.
Well, when you say our participation is required, required to do what? Progress?
If you do not wish to talk about it any further, no harm done.
I truly am tired of this particular subject. You seem to ignore any reference to her cashier/manager scenario. So I guess we have no common material to even discuss.
As far as 'progression', I don't see it in that way, I see it as becoming who God is creating us to be, whatever that may be, which I have no idea but whatever it is it will be wonderful and we will always be in communion iwth HIm, of that I am pretty confident.
I do believe that Mormon websites do put their beliefs in as good a light as possible to compare as much as possible to orthodox Christian belief. I make no judgment whatsoever. We ALL have some differences in belief, and as a believer in the restoration of ALL to God, I agree that we all have different views on many subjects and you and I believe that everyone is restored, no matter what they believe now. But I do feel that the views about God the father is quite different even than any of the differering clusters in MOST Christian circles. Does that mean I don't consider Katzpur a sister? no. I rarely say anything about her beliefs. I have the most to say about the concept of a place in which the underachievers of this world will supposedly suffer in unending misery OR be annihilated. I hate that slur on the mercy of God. And I generally try to present it as my belief, and not belittle anyone else for their belief,just the concept itself, tho that can be difficult to do. After all, I've changed my views now and again, and am sure I have a lot to learn. Sometimes I've even learned by 'arguing' with someone. As long as all are respectful, it should be healthy. Bright blessings and peaceful thoughts going out to all.
So, if one can never progress to the point our creator exists in, and He had a creator, does He have limits His creator didn't have, and on down the line, those of our race who reach Godhood, their creations could never reach their power?
I guess that's one of the interesting mysteries, isnt' it?
I truly am tired of this particular subject. You seem to ignore any reference to her cashier/manager scenario. So I guess we have no common material to even discuss.
I'm sorry, Katzpur stating that the cashier example may have been a bad one is the reason I am ignoring it for the most part. When finn responded, Katzpur stated that is not what was meant. That is why I asked her questions and did not hold that example over her head.
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As far as 'progression', I don't see it in that way, I see it as becoming who God is creating us to be, whatever that may be, which I have no idea but whatever it is it will be wonderful and we will always be in communion iwth HIm, of that I am pretty confident.
I am just trying to avoid semantics or a misunderstanding based upon thinking along the same lines but using different words to describe it.
I have not found anything in the LDS doctrine that suggests a Mormon achieves Salvation through anything but Jesus Christ.
What it is that they become when transforming from human being to being like God the Father is a separate issue as much as it can be in Christianity. I do not believe works saves me, but I do believe there is work involved in becoming better today than I was yesterday (progression).
However with that said, it is not my place to judge the salvation of another because they see or believe different things concerning God and Jesus Christ than I do.
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I do believe that Mormon websites do put their beliefs in as good a light as possible to compare as much as possible to orthodox Christian belief.
There are many similarities, and there are differences if you read over all information that is available. They have beliefs I don't believe, but it is the light in which I cast those differences that matters most. Will I cast those differences as a rejection of Jesus Christ as Saviour and the eternal nature of God the Father? I see no evidence to support that when taking in as much information as I can.
Extracting a sermon quote and not trying to find a context to it, is not a viable way in which I will come to a conclusion on the matter.
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