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The thief lived and died under the old law. Baptism was not required under the old law as far as I can tell. Whether the thief received John's baptism or not, we cannot say. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Bible doesn't say. We, on the other hand, live under the law of Christ in which Jesus commanded baptism.
One other thing we need to consider is that
Jesus had authority on earth to forgive sins.
Katie
That is all well and good but since this type of argument is why many people get wound up over the word "Works" I think it will be a good idea to address this specifically.
Being under the new convenant does not eliminate examples of people who may be incapable of being physically baptized in water, while our logic may say that it would be understandable that there would be exceptions for something like this, you should be able to cite scriptures making those kinds of concessions. We should not simply assume something because it sounds reasonable.
If the law is the law, and Jesus commanded water baptism, then I do not see in scripture any exceptions. Even the theif on the cross is not an example of an exception if under the old law it was not required.
So, do you believe that someone who died believing in Christ, having manifestations of faith (works) and was unable to be water baptized is still damned?
If not, then what scriptures cite that there is any exception to the law?
If so, we will simply be in disagreement that the character of God would hold a spiritual matter against someone physically. Since this passage indicates that water is a spiritual issue in the new convenant.
1Jn 5:8 the spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are into the one thing.
Exactly what scripture says that Brian? Were the words the thief spoke not physical? Everything a human being does is physical and that includes believing. Statements like the one you made need scriptural support.
Katie
Looking at my post again, I see where I was not as precise as I should have been.
I should have typed, "outward rituals will not get us into the Kingdom."
In other words, the flesh dies and goes back into the ground. Whether you are baptized or not is not important, since many people have faith in God and are considered "saved." One example of this is people who make a "deathbed confession." No baptism, just faith.
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I think one who truly believes will have a heart for doing good. Someone who professes faith in Christ but goes on sinning is like a communist who gets rich from exploiting the poor.
Finn, if all I ever read was those scriptures, then I would believe as you do. But there are too many other scriptures where Jesus commands repentance, confessing Jesus is Lord before men, immersion, loving God and neighbor, etc. These things are also necessary for salvation. Do you just throw those out the window?
The thief on the cross was indeed saved. He most certainly did do works. The bottom line is that the thief was saved AFTER he manifested his faith. If faith was alone, the thief would never have opened his mouth, but instead, he showed his faith when he spoke up.
Here's how the thief manifested his faith:
1. The thief feared God, and he rebuked the other thief for not fearing God.
2. He acknowledged his own sinfulness and recognized his helplessness. He realized that his punishment was justly deserved, and stated publicly that Jesus was blameless.
3. By calling Jesus "Lord", he confessed his belief in Christ's divinity. He asked for Jesus' mercy, and expressed faith in Christ's eventual triumph and the establishment of His kingdom.
4. In the midst of his own despair, he recognized the fact that Jesus was exactly who He claimed to be. In the very final minutes of life, he recognized the Kingship of Jesus Christ and the salvation He offered.
5. The thief REPENTED. There can never be salvation without repentance! He recognized the fact that he was a sinner, and realized he was lost. He recognized his his inability to save himself. He knew he couldn't get down off that cross and turn over a new leaf. We don't know what was in the thief's heart, but we do know that he confessed his sin.
Katie
So, acknowledging his sinfulness is counted as 'works', and that saved him?
Ok BH, I see what post you are referring to. Sorry about missing it. You say that neither faith nor faith plus works save. You think this gives credit to man. Well all I can say to that is you may THINK that, but the scripture says different. James says we are justified by faith and works. He is writing about our faith and our works, not the faith or works of Jesus. Everyone agrees that the work of Jesus on the cross was done to save us. But man also has a part to play in his salvation. There are a number of scriptures to support that view. Salvation is conditional upon man's faith and response to that faith.
Can you be specific about what works follow your own faith? You say that the thief on the cross had enough works to be saved. Are you, Katie, personally allowed to demonstrate the exact same kind of works as he did and be saved because of it? If not, why? Are there different rules for each person? If so, how does any one person know when they have satisfied God's requirement for their own works?
I agree with Phazelwood about the thief on the cross - either water baptism is required or it's not, unless there is an exception clause. I knew a wonderful 15-year-old girl who was a believer. She won the Outstanding Christian Character award at her Christian school. When she got very sick from a chronic illness and was in ICU, she thought about how she had never been baptized and was "sprinkled" in her hospital bed before she died. I was there by her side. If someone told me she went to "hell" because she was not dunked, I would probably tell them they were insane and feel like punching them. Of course there is no exception written in the bible for theives on crosses or little girls who are dying in the hospital, so can you just read that into scripture because you think it's a good idea? Or do you put your faith and trust in a loving God who would never have rules for something we must do physically to be saved spiritually? I go with the latter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katiemygirl
With that said, if you don't believe what James said, then nothing I could say would make a difference. You obviously don't believe that the entire Bible is the inspired, unerring word of God, so we have no common ground for debate.
If I have misunderstood or misread your view of God's word let me know.
Justification is not equivalent to salvation.
The word of God is Jesus Christ. The bible in its current state in very obviously not perfect. All you have to do is compare two translations to know that, because they contradict each other. Then you compare it to the orginal languages and you find even more problems. As mentioned on the forum before, it's not every single word in the bible that's important. It's the message that God's Word (Jesus Christ) revealed. Love God and love your neighbor as yourself. These two fulfill all the other laws. Jesus said that and He lived it.
Speaking of justification:
Romans 4:
1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it wasaccounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. 5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 " Blessedare thosewhose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessedis theman to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."
Last edited by Bright Hope for Tomorrow; 10-14-2011 at 10:00 AM..
Reason: added verse
The list on post 7 proves only faith is needed. The man on the cross is an example. According to your reasoning, the man on the cross next to Jesus was not saved, because he did not do any works, and was never water baptised. But you know he was saved, don't you.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
I've never understood that when someone reads John 3:16 an base an entire belief on it, how is it they don't take the rest of the new testament into account.
If John 3:16 was all we needed to know, the new testament should be a lot shorter
FWIW, I agree. Nothing that is "physical" is required to enter the "spiritual."
Blessings,
brian
This is a portion of my post from #258 I think.... Nothing physical???
James 2: 14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Pay attention to verse 15-17.
Nothing physical?
Some have asked me to list examples of works. Here ya go.
Some have asked me to define faith. As a member of the church of Christ, I'm apt to go straight to the scripture once more,
Hebrews 11:1---New American Standard Bible
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
This is a portion of my post from #258 I think.... Nothing physical???
James 2: 14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? 17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. 18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Pay attention to verse 15-17.
Nothing physical?
Some have asked me to list examples of works. Here ya go.
Some have asked me to define faith. As a member of the church of Christ, I'm apt to go straight to the scripture once more,
Hebrews 11:1---New American Standard Bible
Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.
I've never understood that when someone reads John 3:16 an base an entire belief on it, how is it they don't take the rest of the new testament into account.
If John 3:16 was all we needed to know, the new testament should be a lot shorter
James 2 seeks to the contrary. So does mark 16:16
They? Well, I don't know who 'they' are, but personally I take the whole NT into account, but don't expect me to copy/paste the whole thing here.
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I was there by her side. If someone told me she went to "hell" because she was not dunked, I would probably tell them they were insane and feel like punching them. Of course there is no exception written in the bible for theives on crosses or little girls who are dying in the hospital, so can you just read that into scripture because you think it's a good idea? Or do you put your faith and trust in a loving God who would never have rules for something we must do physically to be saved spiritually? I go with the latter.
