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Atom I was not comparing but making a statement about how Great God's patience "IS" towards our faith, considering HE IS the Author and Finisher of it. In other words he is not imposing, "you must, unless, if you don't you are not, upon us".
And because you along with Katie are using the scripture from James so dogmatically, I am turning the scripture back on you, and asking you to tell us what your works are in light of your strong stance on works accompanying faith.
At the very least define and be specific with what you believe are works that accompany faith. What is the point in quoting that scripture from James if you cannot expound on it and share from your own experience how it is a reality in your own life ?.
yes. you were comparing... you even used the word "compare" in the middle of sentence with my example of patience on one side and an example of God's patience on the other. you can't interpret your own wording. That's exactly what you did and i didn't appreciate it.
furthermore, you want me to provide examples of my works to validate my walk with God so you can find me worthy of discussing James? Are you going to Judge my works as worthy? What gives you the authority to approve of my works?
And its not MY strong stand on works... I didn't write James. I just believe it.
if i did tell you all my works, it wouldn't change anything. You'd still believe it but not to a certain degree.
I don't do the things i do for God so that i can use them as leverage in a discussion about God. you might... I don't. Furthermore, I'd never ask someone to prove to me they HAD works before I'd talk to them about it.
But since you won't answer the question james poses, i will. "No." It says faith without works is dead. it even gives an example. I'll give an example from my own life, but don't get excited, i'm gonna embellish. For instance, A family comes up to the church after services and say they need groceries. I walk up to them and say, "Have faith and be filled!" THEN, i walk away and lock the door behind me. Have i done anything useful? NOPE.
James 2:24 comes right out and says it! I don't understand people who deny it.
you have to have faith! You have to have works! Your faith will result in works fitting of salvation if your faith is true. But both are required.
I John 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. (**** come to know him/keep his commandments-- faith/works****)4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
You admire it, and God doesn't ?. O I forgot God see's those that do not believe as filthy rags.
Matt 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ *****these are the people who have done the will of God--- they had works *****
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
******These are the enemies of the Cross of Christ******
44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
******Again, the examples of Works and the importance of them********
46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
*****this is where those who love God will be separated from those who Don't*******
no one who doesn't love God will be in heaven. God doesn't want anyone to be lost, but the fact remains that the way that leads to destruction is Broad for a reason. That reason is because many will find it.
Last edited by atomtkirk; 10-14-2011 at 10:42 PM..
yes. you were comparing... you even used the word "compare" in the middle of sentence with my example of patience on one side and an example of God's patience on the other. you can't interpret your own wording. That's exactly what you did and i didn't appreciate it.
furthermore, you want me to provide examples of my works to validate my walk with God so you can find me worthy of discussing James? Are you going to Judge my works as worthy? What gives you the authority to approve of my works?
And its not MY strong stand on works... I didn't write James. I just believe it.
if i did tell you all my works, it wouldn't change anything. You'd still believe it but not to a certain degree.
I don't do the things i do for God so that i can use them as leverage in a discussion about God. you might... I don't. Furthermore, I'd never ask someone to prove to me they HAD works before I'd talk to them about it.
But since you won't answer the question james poses, i will. "No." It says faith without works is dead. it even gives an example. I'll give an example from my own life, but don't get excited, i'm gonna embellish. For instance, A family comes up to the church after services and say they need groceries. I walk up to them and say, "Have faith and be filled!" THEN, i walk away and lock the door behind me. Have i done anything useful? NOPE.
JaThmes 2:24 comes right out and says it! I don't understand people who deny it.
you have to have faith! You have to have works! Your faith will result in works fitting of salvation if your faith is true. But both are required.
I John 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. (**** come to know him/keep his commandments-- faith/works****)4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
Matt 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’ *****these are the people who have done the will of God--- they had works *****
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
******These are the enemies of the Cross of Christ******
44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
******Again, the examples of Works and the importance of them********
46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
*****this is where those who love God will be separated from those who Don't*******
no one who doesn't love God will be in heaven. Godp doesn't want anyone to be lost, but the fact remains that the way that leads to destruction is Broad for a reason. That reason is because many will find it.
Why cannot you not understand that I was using Gods greats patience towards us to illustrate that is how he is towards those that he is bringing to faith and towards those that he has. I referenced Romans 2 verse 4 to show that he is. Basically what I am saying to you if you want me to be blunt is "who the hell do you think you are to quote faith works without is dead so adamantly,obviously inferring that another's faith is dead,without being able to back it up with your own life , like James the guy who wrote the epistles, he said I can show you my faith by my deeds. I too have made it clear that I believe works accompanies faith, I have already pointed you to the thread where I stated this the last time you stated that i was silent on the issue,but Gods knows the heart of those who simply say it is by faith in his grace that I am saved,which is perfectly acceptable to God.
The truth is you don't know what you are talking about, if what you believe is a reality in your own life, instead of bible head knowledge, you would have no trouble at least saying I am a doer of his word,but your own condemned works conscience mind will not allow you to confess that.
You would do well to begin to understand this verse of scripture.
That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus. Philemon 1:6
Faith becomes effective by acknowledging not by works, works are an effect of acknowledging by faith
Why cannot you not understand that I was using Gods greats patience towards us to illustrate that is how he is towards those that he is bringing to faith and towards those that he has. I referenced Romans 2 verse 4 to show that he is. Basically what I am saying to you if you want me to be blunt is "who the hell do you think you are to quote faith works without is dead so adamantly,obviously inferring that another's faith is dead,without being able to back it up with your own life , like James the guy who wrote the epistles, he said I can show you my faith by my deeds. I too have made it clear that I believe works accompanies faith, I have already pointed you to the thread where I stated this the last time you stated that i was silent on the issue,but Gods knows the heart of those who simply say it is by faith in his grace that I am saved.
Don't take this the wrong way, I hold no I'll will to you, but I'm not going to respond to you any more. You can comment on my posts, but I will not respond.
What is is commandment to you? ,but to love your neighbor as yourself,thus fulfilling the whole law,this is what the sermon on the mount is all about,Jesus making it entirely clear what a faith walk is all about.
Faith is not... I believe In the bible. If you have faith that God heals, you will not go around saying you are sick, if you believe that God meets you in all your needs, your confession will not be one of lack, if you believe in love,grace and mercy, you will be show all 3 of them,if you believe you are a Father of many nations you will not be saying my name is Abram,if you truly have faith there will be evidence,being baptized,saying I believe in the bible,going to church are not evidence,faith is living and vibrant,an inward thing that manifests itself outwardly in obedience to what it believes.
You show me a man who loves his enemies,who turns the other cheek,goes the extra mile, gives his cloak as well as his shirt, there's a man with living vibrant faith.
Atomtkirk you asked "am I agreeing with you"?, to be quite honest I do thinks so, because I think I see works entirely different to you.
This post by the way is my response to faith and works that you never said I gave.
Don't take this the wrong way, I hold no I'll will to you, but I'm not going to respond to you any more. You can comment on my posts, but I will not respond.
*29 The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 He then brought them out and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved, you and YOUR HOUSEHOLD.
would like to learn just one thing from you Katie and Atomtkirk Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by BELIEVING what you heard ? Gal 3:2
That is all well and good but since this type of argument is why many people get wound up over the word "Works" I think it will be a good idea to address this specifically.
Being under the new convenant does not eliminate examples of people who may be incapable of being physically baptized in water, while our logic may say that it would be understandable that there would be exceptions for something like this, you should be able to cite scriptures making those kinds of concessions. We should not simply assume something because it sounds reasonable.
If the law is the law, and Jesus commanded water baptism, then I do not see in scripture any exceptions. Even the theif on the cross is not an example of an exception if under the old law it was not required.
So, do you believe that someone who died believing in Christ, having manifestations of faith (works) and was unable to be water baptized is still damned?
If not, then what scriptures cite that there is any exception to the law?
If so, we will simply be in disagreement that the character of God would hold a spiritual matter against someone physically. Since this passage indicates that water is a spiritual issue in the new convenant.
1Jn 5:8 the spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are into the one thing.
Phaze, I hope this is the post you wanted me to respond to. If it's not, then tell me what the post # was, and I will get back to you.
First of all, there are no scriptures that address people who are incapable of physically being baptized. So I can't answer you in that regard.
The Bible doesn't address mentally challenged people either. Will they be held accountable because they weren't baptized?
I don't know how God will deal with handicapped people. It's not my job to judge whether they will be saved or not. If a person believes in Jesus and does many good works, but for some reason can't be baptized, who am I to judge that person? All I can do is teach what it says in the Bible. My job is not to judge.
Do you think that just because a person, like me, teaches others that they need to be baptized, that I am judging? Who am I to judge anybody about anything? But for the grace of God go I!
But I know that Jesus commanded us to be baptized. Peter, his spokesperson, commanded it also. Jesus told us to go into the world and make disciples of all nations by baptizing them. I'm just doing what I was commanded to do. If that comes across as judging, I am sorry.
Phaze, I don't know why you are hung up on this spiritual vs physical thing. I don't know where it's coming from. I don't see its prominence in the Bible. Maybe I'm missing something? Why not just read the Bible and take it from there. Look at the things God has asked you to do. Do them. Then let God take care of those outside the norm.
I don't know if I've answered your question to your satisfaction or not. If not, let me know, and I'll try to do better.
Katie
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Time to shake the dust!
