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Well, those who the word "ourselves" applies to are human and humans have translated the manuscripts.
So at what point do you trust the holy spirit as opposed to bibles that "ourselves" have translated?
True but not quite accurate, yes humans translated the manuscripts but the Holy Spirit prevents errors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
Gosh, I guess that would make some translations a whole lot more accurate than others. Oops! Not what some people want to hear, but unfortunately, it is what it is. All translations have not been created equal, and no translation is a 100% accurate expression in English of the original Greek (or Hebrew).
Correct depending on ones level of faith and understanding.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood
That is an interesting point, perhaps that is why some bibles do not contain the word Hell at all.
Bibles do not contain many words but the concept of certain words are still there. Hell is a descriptive word just as the words that are translated Hell.
True but not quite accurate, yes humans translated the manuscripts but the Holy Spirit prevents errors.
Yet, many who claim to have been led by the holy spirit can be found to be in error, so there is no standard by which the biblical translators would be exempt from that observation.
Quote:
Bibles do not contain many words but the concept of certain words are still there. Hell is a descriptive word just as the words that are translated Hell.
While true, what I said does not change much, but I can understand what your saying. We can find that the word hell translated from 4 words in scripture does a poor job conveying 4 different concepts. I grew up not knowing the 4 different concepts, I was told what hell was and it was one thing as far as I was taught. That is not accurate translating even if it is technically correct.
This is why updates to some translations include that word less and less because of what Christianity has made the word out to be. We find that translations carry more interpretational bias, even if it is unintended by the evolution of a words meaning.
Perhaps mistranslated would not be accurate, but the meaning of one word has become so corrupt that it skews the modrn reading of the scriptures when using that word.
1 Kings 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.
2 Chron 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen
Both from the KJV. Which is correct?
Perhaps they mean two different things. Forty thousand stalls for horses is not the same thing as four thousand stalls for a combination of a certain amount of horses with chariots by their side that can be used on a moments notice. Kind of like the minute man brigade. lol
If something is not mistraslated then what does a person need to compare scripture to scripture in different translations, seems that one should suffice if it is not mistranslated.
Sounds like you know it is mistranslated so you compare scripture to scripture to get the best guess out of em all.
I don't believe the Bible is mistranslated, so please don't twist my words and make them say something I didn't say. We should always compare scripture to scripture about any given topic in order to completely understand it. You obviously think the Bible is in error. That is your choice. I didn't start the thread to prove that it is or isn't. I just wanted to know how others felt about it. I don't believe the Bible is in error or mistranslated. I trust that God meant what He said. He promised to preserve His word forever. He certainly didn't expect all of us to be Greek language experts. If we had to depend on our knowledge of Greek, we'd all be lost. I know of no one on this forum who has a degree in the Greek language. If someone does, then I ask that they post it for all to see. Like I said before, as soon as you open up the door of "mistranslated," then anything goes.
I know that God has the power to keep his word inerrant despite the fault finders.
And therein lies the crux of the matter. You either have faith that God has kept His promise to us or you do not. He promised to preserve His word. Either you believe that or you don't.
I believe all of those commonly known and accepted versions of the Enlgish Bible we have are UNERRING. I have faith that they are not mistranslated especially in matters of doctrine.
I believe the Bibles are accurately translated for the methods of their individual translations. We must remember the Holy Spirit still protects His Word and we must always read it and listen to the Holy Spirit. Each different translation is translated to be understood by different level of faith. I for one like to use several different translations as well as Hebrew/Greek literal translations and Strong Concordance.
It is not that I don't trust the individual translations but that I want a much clearer understanding of what I read and study.
No God would not neglect the preservation of His pure word, He gave us His Holy Spirit for Clarity and guidance.
We can trust the Bibles but not ourselves, we need the Holy Spirit, the problem is that we ignore the Holy Spirit more than we listen.
The Psalms have got it right and we should pay better attention.
I agree with you Robin. My problem is with the so called "Greek language experts" on this forum. They read articles written by other so called Greek language experts and then the next thing you know, they have a docrtine contrary to what the plain simple language of the Bible reveals. Why not just accept what scriptures say?
I have no issue with using a concordance or other Bible aids to help us figure out what some difficult passages mean. And there's nothing wrong with reading other's opinions either. But we need to remember that NONE of those commentators who write are INSPIRED. Their opinions are no better than our own, and they are without a doubt, biased in one way or another. I truly believe we are better off to stay away from them as much as we can. We need to trust in the promises of God. The Holy Spirit will guide us into truth. We need to spend 99% of our time in the Bible, and the rest reading what others have to say.
So your comment is spot on! "
"We can trust the Bibles but not ourselves, we need the Holy Spirit, the problem is that we ignore the Holy Spirit more than we listen." AMEN!!!
I do believe that when we read our Bibles, and we ask for guidance in understanding, the Holy Spirit is right there with us, helping us to know what the truth is. But we will never know the truth if we put our trust in the words of men.
It's amazing how you can have faith that God can preserve what us written in ink by the hands of men while continually reminding us how deceitful and desperately wicked the heart of man is without exception. Then on the other hand not have faith that God's living word(which is NOT the bible), cannot and will not accomplish his desires.If He accomplishes His desire to keep the bible inerrant as you say,His desire is something more than simply wanting something to happen,it's an accomplishing desire. So if you could be so kind will you stop cherry picking what His desires can and cannot accomplish.xoxox
Because the Bible isn't a single book, it's several dozen from different time periods, cultures, and authors. I need not reject the entire thing just because certain verses were altered.
I can read through a biology textbook and glean a great deal about biology from it. Doesn't mean science won't uncover that some things in that book are outdated and inaccurate as new evidence is discovered, nor does it mean everything I've learned is false.
And God never said he promised the Bible would remain pure and untampered with (and 2 Timothy 3:16 does not support that he did). Show me where God ever authorized King James or a Bible publishing house to convert scripture into modern day English? If God wanted the Bible to be perfect, he never would have let humanity touch it. King James himself, for example, admitted to ordering his translators to alter the Bible to conform to Church of England teaching and become more "Christianized". God never stopped them from doing it.
Here are some scriptures for you. God did promise His word would be preserved. Psalm 12:6-7, Psalm 119:152, Psalm 119:89, 1 Peter 1:23,25, Matthew 24:35
I agree with you that God never said His word wouldn't be tampered with. We have proof that it has with the New World Translation, the JW's so called Bible.
However, to say that all English translations of the Bible are mistranslated leaves the door wide open for any wind of doctrine that comes our way. Just go in and change anything you want saying that it has been mistranslated.
God certainly did not expect us to be experts in the Greek language. If we had to depend on knowledge of the Greek, we would all be in big trouble. Rare are the Greek language experts in this world.
Something else to consider: Accept the entire Bible 100% unerring, or throw the whole thing out. Who's to say which parts are accurate and which are not? That's picking and choosing.
Why not just say, "I believe and accept the KJV ( just using the KJV as an example) as the unerring word of God, or I do not accept the KJV as the unerring word of God.
If you cannot trust one of the commonly known and accepted English translations of the Bible, (such as KJV, NASV, RSV) and you are not a Greek language expert, then what can you trust? The doctrines of men?
Do you see my point? Accept all of it, or none of it. There is no in between.
IMHO, we don't trust the Holy Spirit enough to guide us into all truth. Instead, we rely on the opinions of men. We need to spend more time in our Bible and a whole lot less reading the opinions of men. But that's just me.
I find that there are many differences between translations.
For instance: Some translations are dynamic (thought for thought), but who's thought's are being translated?
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
lol...other Bibles use the "formal" equivalence mode of translation (word for word), but what is formal about it? The translators themselves often cannot decide within their own committees what words to use in the translation. Often times using the margins when in doubt or when various alternate readings may be important.
Take the ASV 1901 edition vs the British ERV edition of 1885, itself a revision of the KJV. Many of the preferred readings of the American translators simply did not make the cut required to supplant the KJV text, or for that matter the British edition. Even if a particular reading was held by the majority of the American translators. Read the preface to the ASV 1901, here:
Idiomatic (paraphrased) versions of the bible are even more troublesome. Who's idiom is actually being expressed? The original authors (ie: Paul, Luke, Mark, John, etc.) or that of the translator? I suppose there are as many ideas on this method of translation as there are people on the earth.
Then, you have the go-for-broke literal translations such as the YLT or the LITV. Young's version has a very informative preface to his translation that is worth reading, here:
There are also excellent interlinears available that try and get the English language as close to the original languages as possible.
And, the issue surrounding textual criticism is also important. What manuscripts should be used during the translation? Take the NT manuscripts for example. Should it be one that favors the Alexandrian manuscripts, or of the Byzantine group, or should it be an eclectic text?
There are many differences of opinion on all of this. I really don't think the OP question can be given a simple yes or no answer.
Either we trust what we have 100%, or we do not. There is no in between. As soon as you say the Bible is mistranslated, then you leave the door wide open to any wind of doctrine that comes down the pike.
We have to trust in God's promise to keep His word pure. Our English translations are all we have. We are not Greek experts. Therefore, we must depend on our English translations.
Most of all, we must trust in the Holy Spirit. He will guide us to truth. I truly believe that we need to spend a lot more time studying God's word, and little to no time reading the opinions of men.
Katie
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Oops! Not what some people want to hear, but unfortunately, it is what it is. All translations have not been created equal, and no translation is a 100% accurate expression in English of the original Greek (or Hebrew).
